D&D (2024) Stealth Errata

[Charlaquin]

The rules say, "The DM decides when conditions are appropriate for hiding." That remains the rule no matter what definition one uses for the word "hiding." One definition of the word "hiding" is "the state of being hidden." So the DM decides when conditions are appropriate for (among other things) the state of being hidden.

That is one definition of the word hiding. It is not clear from the text that it is the intended meaning, because there are other definitions of the word. This is why game rules text often defines specific technical language, because plain English is often ambiguous and ambiguity is not conducive to keeping rulests functioning as intended. I actually think from the context, it’s more likely that this phrasing is meant to refer to when the character can attempt to hide, not if they stay hidden, since there are more specific rules for determining the latter.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't really know why 5e didn't keep some of these elements. I'd wager it was hard to design Hide as an action while also having the more free-form movement in 5e that didn't tether moving to a distinct phase of the round. Probably not impossible, but maybe not exactly a high priority.

No need to wonder, one of the people who designed it is the opening poster of this thread. It’s been a while, but if I remember what @mearls said about the design decision way back in the D&D Next Playtest, they considered more robust rules but found there were a lot of corner cases and trying to cover them rapidly made the stealth rules text longer and more complex. Given that part of their design vision for the new edition was to recenter play around the conversation between the players and the DM, it felt more within the spirit of what they were going for to have relatively barebones Stealth rules and rely on the DM to use their judgement about when a character could hide. But maybe he could offer more insight,

It's less clear to me why 5e is so averse to the hidden/invisible distinction. Mmmmmaybe due to trying hard to be newbie-friendly, because the assumption is that when you "turn invisible" no one knows you're around?

Yeah, this is a bit more mysterious. In one of the earlier 1D&D playtest UAs, Hidden was its own condition, and they did ask for feedback about it. I myself voted that I was very satisfied with that design and praised it in the comments. But by the next UA, Hidden got merged with Invisible, probably because someone noticed that its text was very similar to that of the Invisible condition, and thought combining them could save wordcount (2025 seems to have aggressively cut down on “unnecessary” wordcount). But they never asked for feedback on this change despite it appearing in several UAs, and I doubt I’m the only one who expressed dissatisfaction with this change in the comments at every single opportunity.

 

[Hussar]

The problem that I see is that everyone wants to make the "Invisible" condition mean more than it does. Invisible means you cannot be seen, attacks against you have disadvantage and you cannot be targeted by LOS spells. That's it. The enemy knows what square you are in. You aren't hidden (in the plain English sense of the word) when you are invisible.

If you want the baddies to not know where you are, you need to take the hide action. At that point, they have no idea where you are (presuming you succeed).

At least, that's how I interpret the rules.

 

[Charlaquin]

The problem that I see is that everyone wants to make the "Invisible" condition mean more than it does. Invisible means you cannot be seen, attacks against you have disadvantage and you cannot be targeted by LOS spells. That's it. The enemy knows what square you are in. You aren't hidden (in the plain English sense of the word) when you are invisible.

If you want the baddies to not know where you are, you need to take the hide action. At that point, they have no idea where you are (presuming you succeed).

At least, that's how I interpret the rules.

I certainly think that’s how it should work. But the only effect 2024’s hide action is that you gain the invisible condition while you’re hidden. Pretty redundant if you already have the invisible condition. Also, if the invisible condition itself doesn’t make you hidden… how exactly does one become hidden? The rules are silent on the matter.

 

[DEFCON 1]

DM determines how they are using stealth and invisibility at their table and tells the players. Players then use those rules or rulings of the DM to play the game. Any questions that come up will be decided by the DM with occasional recommendations from the players on how things might go. If this doesn't match a different DM's determination that you've played at on how stealth and invisibility works... then you just have to spend the 3 minutes at the top of the game going over the differences.

There's your Hiding rules. Same as they have always been.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The problem that I see is that everyone wants to make the "Invisible" condition mean more than it does. Invisible means you cannot be seen,

It doesn't actually say that though.

 

[Hussar]

I certainly think that’s how it should work. But the only effect 2024’s hide action is that you gain the invisible condition while you’re hidden. Pretty redundant if you already have the invisible condition. Also, if the invisible condition itself doesn’t make you hidden… how exactly does one become hidden? The rules are silent on the matter.

The difference between hidden and invisible is that hidden means that no one knows your location or even if you are present at all. Invisible just means you are unseen.

Again, this is how I interpret the rules.

 

[Hussar]

It doesn't actually say that though.

Who cares?

I'm not going to worry about forcing the game designers to hold my hand for this. This is the most logical (at least to me) interpretation and it works quite well. End of problem as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Who cares?

I'm not going to worry about forcing the game designers to hold my hand for this. This is the most logical (at least to me) interpretation and it works quite well. End of problem as far as I'm concerned.

Well, then it means that you certainly cannot be found with vision, as hidden gives you invisibility, and invisibility means you cannot be seen.

 

[KYRON45]

Sure, and maybe in a perfect world everyone would have a non-argumentative group.

The most expensive part of gaming is time. Don’t waste it on arguments. Make a ruling and move on.