D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Again, I think your autocorrect is having its way with you. :D

Sigh. This does nicely illustrate why the conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

1. Example of sandbox play is a clear example of linear play.

All you did was provide an example of characters going from A to B to C to D. You didn't initially mention, unless I missed it, that they went from A to B because they only had information about B

2. Deny that it's linear repeatedly, despite being proven that it's linear.
This isn't what happened. The example was unclear. From the way it was initially posted, it could have been a linear adventure or a non-linear one

3. Change the example to add in new elements absent from the original example to prove why the original example wasn't linear.
Because it wasn't clear what was going on until your very recent post. All we had was what the players did, not what the GM was doing on his end

4. Ignore the fact that even with the changes, it's still 100% linear. You must proceed from A to B to C, even if you can choose a different A starting point.
This is where the argument breaks down. If the GM isn't giving them information that strictly leads to A to B to C to D, and if players are going in that path of their own volition (and have options to go A T to Y to D or A to Q to Z to F, it isn't a linear adventure

Granted, why would the players choose a new starting point? The players asked you how to get to Nexus. You told them to go see the Sage Basil Exposition to find the portal to the Nexus.

Players then say, "Nope, we don't want to go to see Basil, what else you got?" And, in your mind, a sandbox DM will then create a completely new path to get from A to D. Granted that new path is completely linear as well, but, apparently that's what sandbox adventures are? :erm:

This isn't how most sandboxes are run though. You are effectively just creating a straw man. Also if the players are setting D as their goal, but they have other goals they could be choosing (which they would in a sandbox) the only reason the information is all leading to D is because that is the goal they set for themselves.

Your argument just doesn't seem to make any sense
 

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And it's easy to illustrate. Two dungeons. One is a series of 4 chambers A-B-C-D. There's no plausible way to do the adventure in any other order. That's a linear dungeon. Second dungeon has 4 rooms, each room connecting to the other three rooms. The dungeon can be entered at any point, A through D. That's about as non-linear as you can make it.
That is a good example for dungeons.

For the campaign at large, Sandbox is enter chambers A and not do enter chambers B-D while you find another dungeon with chambers E-J or ignore both dungeons and go to town K and take a portal to plane ZY.

The latter is far more player-driven, but not necessarily as much as @pemerton would prefer. :ROFLMAO:
 

No, what makes it not a sandbox is that the amount of work required to create all that precludes the game from ever happening at all because the DM just doesn't have the time. And, if your game needs all that work just to be able to run the sandbox, then a game where you can do all that without actually needing all that prep and still get the same results is, IMO, better.

Look, if the prep is the issue, I agree with you, that sandbox probably isn't the style for you. One downside of a sandbox is you have to prep a lot more in the lead up to the campaign. I will say though the prep gets a lot easier with time. And if you have an alternative that you think works great, I think that is fine as well. What kind of bothers me in thees threads is there seems to be an aggressive hostility towards sandbox play and very mild claims sandbox fans make (like they tend to be non-linear or open). I do agree, that sandboxes can have linear adventures. I don't think most do, as most sandboxes I have played in haven't been linear. But linear and non-linear is also a distinction that exists outside sandbox. There are lots of non-linear adventure structures out there

Note, when you talk about depth, that simply comes over time. The longer you play, the more depth develops in the setting. But, instead of all depth coming from a single source like in a Trad game like D&D, that depth comes from everyone at the table.

And this is fine, and I don't think your games don't have depth just because they aren't sandboxes, or they use different levels of involvement creatively from the players. Most campaigns I have been in, the depth arises when play begins because notes are just notes on a page until the players get involved. I often find my visualization of a location crystallizes only when the players set foot there (because I am not forced to imagine it as fully and completely until they start interacting with it). So I think depth is very independent of prep itself. Prep is just a tool for running the game, and not all styles, systems or GMs require heavy prep

A sandbox that doesn't work on a lot of impov means that it requires a mountain of effort from the DM. Great for those who want to spend hours and hours on their game worlds but, not something I particularly find conducive to running sandboxes.

My experience with sandbox is they are a mixture of prep and improv. But the improv is usually guided by clear ideas. One example of this is 'the rule of cool' is less common to see in a sandbox when the GM is improvising (not saying it can't happen, or some people don't learn into it, but it is a less common sensibility behind improv in sandboxes in my experience).

But yes, if you don't want to do this kind of prep, or you think it doesn't add anything, I would say don't run this kind of sandbox. Sandbox is just one adventure structure I have found I am comfortable running and enjoy running. Sometimes I like running a traditional sandbox. Sometimes I like running monster of the week or mysteries. I don't think sandbox is the be all end all, or even that more people ought to be running them.
 



I'm saying that D&D is not a very good sandbox game. It certainly can be done. Obviously since people do it. But, it takes a freaking MOUNTAIN of work to pull it off in anything other than the most facile way. If you'll notice that most of the folks who talk about their sandbox campaigns are talking about game worlds that they've been using and developing for years, if not decades. They're talking about being able to leverage resources - spare NPC's, spare locations, spare whatever - that has been years and again sometimes, decades in the making.
I think some editions are harder than others for sure. I ran a wuxia sandbox with 3E and to a degree it was a pain because of classic 3Eisms (making an NPC can take forever in that system, if you want to do it right). So I do think there are pitfalls to using some editions. But I also distinction remember sitting down at the table with the array of books and resources (I had been cobbling together material from a bunch of d20 books to create a cohesive wuxia campaign, which I found the OA books didn't really lend themselves to), and just thinking 'this feels so right'. What I mean is something about the way D&D is set up, with all the monsters, the magic items, dungeons etc, lent itself very easily to constructing a sandbox. Yes NPCs were a massive pain in the ass. But in terms of stocking a world with places to explore, the premise of D&D works great.

It did have downsides. This was one among may martial arts campaigns I had tried to run using 3E. And while I look back fondly on those campaigns. The flavor was a bit off in places. The emphasis on supernatural too heavy for what I was going for (it worked great for playability but at times the flavor of the supernatural felt like it worked against the themes). So I am not saying D&D is a perfect solution. And I ran other games too. The main advantage D&D was it just had a ton of crap you could inject into a setting and it was super super easy to recruit (I got multiple groups for my 3E wuxia campaigns, whereas it could often be a struggle getting people to let me run Hong Kong Action Theatre!).

In terms of decades of work. I don't typically do the "I've been running this sandbox for forty years" thing. I have one setting I frequently run because I published it. But I like to hit the reset button on it after about 120 sessions or so (so I don't end up doing metaplot in supplements). My preference is to do a long campaign, then start another sandbox.

If it takes years or even decades to run D&D as a sandbox, then, I don't think it's terribly unfair to say that D&D is not a particularly good game to run as a sandbox. Not that it's impossible. Just that there are games out there that do it much better. And, what people call sandboxes and non-linear tends to have some... idiosyncratic definitions going on.

I don't think it does. You can run a D&D sandbox for a long time and there are payoffs to doing that for sure. But the other side of that approach is you end up with a towering binder. By the time I get to 120 sessions of a campaign (which isn't even super long if you are playing week to week), I have a binder that is too heavy to rest on my lap and you do become a slave to its contents (you are not chained to the details, and you can still improv, but have to reference your notes for consistency. Something as simple as "is this NPC still even alive" is actually a complicated question in a very long campaign (the sheer number of NPCs means if you aren't tracaknign that you will forget)
 


A good rule of thumb is that any thread that reaches past like Page 20 is no longer really about the original premise of the thread and that the participants involved have got themselves caught in a whole bunch of circular arguments that go on and on and on with no end in sight. ;)

I think we are managing to keep the exhaustion side of things alive and well :)
 

Roll if the result is unclear
This is not the rule for when to roll the dice in Burning Wheel.

To requote (from p 72):

Unless there is something at stake in the story you have created, don’t bother with the dice. Keep moving, keep describing, keep roleplaying. But as soon as a character wants something that he doesn’t have, needs to know something he doesn’t know, covets something that someone else has, roll the dice. . . . When there is conflict, roll the dice.​

The rule for rolling makes no reference to uncertainty at all. It refers to stakes and conflict. And this follows from the other key rule (from pp 11):

The GM presents the players with problems based on the players’ priorities.​

if you roll well enough the attempted action succeeds, otherwise it does not.
This isn't the rule either. To requote, from pp 30-31:

what happens after the dice have come to rest and the successes are counted? If the successes equal or exceed the obstacle, the character has succeeded in his goal - he achieved his intent and completed the task.

This is important enough to say again: Characters who are successful complete actions in the manner described by the player. A successful roll is sacrosanct in Burning Wheel and neither GM nor other players can change the fact that the act was successful. The GM may only embellish or reinforce a successful ability test. . . .

When the dice are rolled and don’t produce enough successes to meet the obstacle, the character fails. What does this mean? It means the stated intent does not come to pass.​

The centrality of intent is also very closely connected to player priorities for their PCs, which inform what is at stake in the situations the GM frames.

Not exactly an unfamiliar concept.
Well, they seem unfamiliar enough that you mis-stated them in your post!

It is still the GM who controls whether the outcome is unclear
As I said, that is not a rule.

We know if the outcome is unclear because the rules call for a roll. And the rules call for a roll because something is at stake which generates conflict based on a players' priorities for their PC. This is the fundamental difference between Burning Wheel and GM-driven play.

how difficult the task is / how good the roll has to be, or is that a group vote? I doubt these can be prescribed for every situation
The GM sets obstacles, by reference to the rules. The rulebook lists hundreds of difficulties, and has strong guidelines for setting difficulties where a difficulty is not listed. As I also posted, the way that players control their dice pools and that PCs advance based on facing a range of difficulties reduces the pressure on the GM to get it exactly "right".

seems to be more prescriptive than D&D but that is usually the case in D&D too, even if not by design
To the contrary: advancement in D&D does not depend on facing a range of difficulties, and players have an incentive to always try and roll with as big a bonus as possible. This is a very big difference between D&D and Burning Wheel.

At a higher resolution level, how is it decided where the Spelljammer ship is, how to get to it, and how difficult it is to get (to) it? If any if this is still up to the DM, then the DM can still very much be permissive or not.
If a player has written the Belief for their PC, I will find a spelljammer!, then - as per the rules that I've quoted - the GM's job is to frame scenes that speak to this Belief and put it under pressure.

Here's an example, pertaining not to a spelljammer but a different magic item:

pemerton posting as thurgon on rpg.net said:
One of the players had bought rulebooks and built a BW PC (a noble-born Rogue Wizard inspired by Alatar, one of Tolkien's blue wizards of the East).

<snip>

The rogue wizard, Jobe, had a relationship with his brother and rival. The ranger-assassin, Halika, had a relationship, also hostile with her mentor, and the player decided that was because it turned out she was being prepared by him to be sacrificed to a demon. It seemed to make sense that the two rival, evil mages should be one and the same, and each player wrote a belief around defeating him: in Jobe's case, preventing his transformation into a Balrog; in Halika's case, to gain revenge.

<snip>

I had pulled out my old Greyhawk material and told them they were starting in the town of Hardby, half-way between the forest (where the assassin had fled from) and the desert hills (where Jobe had been travelling), and so each came up with a belief around that: I'm not leaving Hardby without gaining some magical item to use against my brother and, for the assassin with starting Resources 0, I'm not leaving Hardby penniless. . . .

I started things in the Hardby market: Jobe was looking at the wares of a peddler of trinkets and souvenirs, to see if there was anything there that might be magical or useful for enchanting for the anticipated confrontation with his brother. Given that the brother is possessed by a demon, he was looking for something angelic. The peddler pointed out an angel feather that he had for sale, brought to him from the Bright Desert. Jobe (who has, as another instinct, to always use Second Sight), used Aura Reading to study the feather for magical traits. The roll was a failure, and so he noticed that it was Resistant to Fire (potentially useful in confronting a Balrog) but also cursed. (Ancient History was involved somehow here too, maybe as a FoRK into Aura Reading (? I can't really remember), establishing something about an ancient battle between angels and demons in the desert.)

My memory of the precise sequence of events is hazy, but in the context the peddler was able to insist on proceeding with the sale, demanding 3 drachmas (Ob 1 resource check). As Jobe started haggling a strange woman (Halika) approached him and offered to help him if he would buy her lunch. Between the two of them, the haggling roll was still a failure, and also the subsequent Resources check: so Jobe got his feather but spent his last 3 drachmas, and was taxed down to Resources 0. They did get some more information about the feather from the peddler, however - he bought it from a wild-eyed man with dishevelled beard and hair, who said that it had come from one of the tombs in the Bright Desert.
So that's one example: frame the PC directly into a situation presenting them with the opportunity to obtain what they want.

There are other possibilities, too: it would depend on the full complement of the PC's Beliefs, Relationships, what matters to the other PCs, etc.

In general, there would be much less "breadcrumb following" than is typical in D&D. The rules of Burning Wheel preclude no-stakes scenes with tests that serve no purpose other than leading to more no-stakes scenes. (Remembering again that what counts as stakes is decided by the players, via the priorities that they establish for their PCs, and not by the GM.)
 
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