D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Campbell]

So, I do not believe that the depth of a setting in play is determined by the hours put into it up front. The settings I have experienced as having the most depth are ones we have developed through play in our games. Our Amsterdam Vampire Chronicle, the Final Fantasy 8 inspired game we're playing now (where there really wasn't up front lore), the Apocalypse Keys game I ran for 3 months that we were just starting to understand the depths of DIVISION.

Bringing it back to D&D the underlying depth of what we were building in the Chamberlain scenario we established on these boards felt like a rich tapestry to me.

When I have started with more up-front design or experienced games with more up-front design the settings really have not felt as real or vibrant.

I don't think either up front design or develop through play leads to more setting depth. I think how well you execute the designs do. What's important is approaching play and design with curiosity and not trying to force it to fit into the shape you initially saw.

 

[darkbard]

How broad or deep can you get in a world created in under an hour? I suppose Hussar could be an absolute genius at fast worldbuilding, but would I bet on that? No.

In support of what @Campbell says immediately above, I invite you to check out the Play-by-Post game run by @Manbearcat for me and @Nephis. Everything that is "predetermined" about the setting and characters of that game is in that initial post, hashed out over the course of less than a half hour. Read through. I'll put the breadth, depth, and richness of that setting up against anything from a game heavily frontloaded on woldbuilding. And it all emerged from play. Everything is there on record.

The Slave and Her Sovereign

 

[Faolyn]

No, see, any world that doesn't have a three hundred page setting bible apparently isn't broad or deep. DM's, in order to run a "real" sandbox, must develop an entire world from scratch or it doesn't really count, unless, of course, you buy a pre-made world from someone.

That's not even remotely what I said.

On the other hand, you're saying that if you put in that much work in your world, it can't be a good sandbox, because good sandboxes don't need that much work.

 

[Lanefan]

So you have a preferred system. That has nothing to do with whether or not the game being run is a sandbox. I can't answer how long it takes for me to prep for a campaign for two reasons. First is that most of the time is just me noodling on options in the shower. Second is that I don't plan out campaigns nor do I plan out an entire world. I think about high level stuff in the area the characters currently are, what's going on and potential hooks for where they might be going. I never plan out a campaign, I plan out what is most likely for the next session or two. If they really go off on a tangent into areas I hadn't thought about I'll improvise.

So if I'm reading this right, you don't plan ahead much for what the PCs might do on the small scale and more just react on the fly to what they actually do. Fair enough. Oftentimes I do the same, though if they're in an adventure I've usually got it designed (or have hauled out a published module) fully enough to avoid my having to design elements of it on the fly.

My question is, how well nailed-down is the background setting? Maybe you haven't planned out the entire world (neither have I!) but how well have you planned out the region the PCs are operating in? Having that nailed down ahead of time IME really does make things much easier, as if they decide to go somewhere different but still in the region I already pretty much know what's there and can narrate it (I hope) seamlessly.

 

[Lanefan]

Keep it up and you'll get another.

Is that a threat, a challenge, or a promise?

 

[Azzy]

Is that a threat, a challenge, or a promise?

Yes.

 

[pemerton]

How broad or deep can you get in a world created in under an hour? I suppose Hussar could be an absolute genius at fast worldbuilding, but would I bet on that? No.

So, I do not believe that the depth of a setting in play is determined by the hours put into it up front.

<snip>

Bringing it back to D&D the underlying depth of what we were building in the Chamberlain scenario we established on these boards felt like a rich tapestry to me.

<snip>

I don't think either up front design or develop through play leads to more setting depth. I think how well you execute the designs do. What's important is approaching play and design with curiosity and not trying to force it to fit into the shape you initially saw.

So, if by "deep" is meant (to borrow from @Hussar) a 300-page setting bible, then by definition nothing done in half-an-hour will be deep.

But if by "deep" is meant the vibrancy and texture of the setting as experienced in play, then a setting can be created mostly durig play and yet have depth. @Campbell mentioned this game, which I was part of.

I'll mention this Burning Wheel game - Burning Wheel actual play ; Burning Wheel actual play . The docks, the inn where Aedhros took a burning brand from the fire, the petty officials on the docks, the Half-Orc Grellin - all these things felt alive to me.

 

[AlViking]

So if I'm reading this right, you don't plan ahead much for what the PCs might do on the small scale and more just react on the fly to what they actually do. Fair enough. Oftentimes I do the same, though if they're in an adventure I've usually got it designed (or have hauled out a published module) fully enough to avoid my having to design elements of it on the fly.

My question is, how well nailed-down is the background setting? Maybe you haven't planned out the entire world (neither have I!) but how well have you planned out the region the PCs are operating in? Having that nailed down ahead of time IME really does make things much easier, as if they decide to go somewhere different but still in the region I already pretty much know what's there and can narrate it (I hope) seamlessly.

The background info depends on the setting. Most campaigns are in my primary world so there's a lot of history and retired characters or their legacy here and there. To me that adds depth to my world. I still use the same basic map I made in high school on hex paper with colored pencil, even if I have redone it electronically. Some areas have seen a lot of individual campaigns come and go, others not so much. So one current group is in the far north, the one that I was going to have sort-of follow Rime of the Ice Maiden because I have a copy of the mod for some reason that I don't remember. But it's in a region that has a bit of lore, like a goblin tribe that long ago decided to become the good guys because of an interaction with a game long, long ago. Sometimes they even succeed. There's a haunted sea to the south and lore as to why and how it's haunted. But the city they ended up in? It was pretty much just a label on a map so now I've filled it it.

But the other thing with my world is that decades can pass between when one group does adventures to the next. So some events have faded into history, kingdoms have changed, the world has moved on for both better and worse.

I also created a separate campaign world a while back and I just started out like most campaigns do. An outline of the starting city and vague descriptions of the surrounding lands. Enough of an idea of what was going on in the area but leaving a whole lot of blanks with different ideas of what I could do. It's set on a large island, roughly the size of the UK I suppose but I haven't ever gotten around to really mapping it out yet. As we have sessions and the players decide they want to explore more I keep adding to my notes about the different regions, but don't really do much detail until I need it. Even then I just have a list of names I could use for when I inevitably need to improvise because they do stuff I don't expect.

This concept of needing a campaign book all nailed down ahead of time though is just foreign to me. On a regular basis I check where the group wants to go for the next session or two and figure out the details I need to fill it in based on what I know about where they're headed, who they're likely to confront and if any of the character's actions or world events have had any impact. Rinse and repeat until eventually we get to a logical stopping point. At some point in the mid-to-upper levels a big threat will eventually emerge to end the campaign on, even if it wasn't anything I had ever planned on.

 

[Faolyn]

So, if by "deep" is meant (to borrow from @Hussar) a 300-page setting bible, then by definition nothing done in half-an-hour will be deep.

But if by "deep" is meant the vibrancy and texture of the setting as experienced in play, then a setting can be created mostly durig play and yet have depth. @Campell mentioned this game, which I was part of.

I'll mention this Burning Wheel game - Burning Wheel actual play ; Burning Wheel actual play . The docks, the inn where Aedhros took a burning brand from the fire, the petty officials on the docks, the Half-Orc Grellin - all these things felt alive to me.

Well, Hussar said he hates worldbuilding and had a player leave because he wanted to know more about the setting and Hussar didn't have answers, so for all I know, "deep" in this case could mean anything beyond the sheer surface.

Sure, lots of things can be created during play. I had to create all sorts of details on the fly because the players wanted to know about them and I didn't think about them ahead of time. But I also find it helps make the world richer by coming up with at least some of those details ahead of time.

And as I said way up thread, for many people, creating these details is fun. It's not a huge waste of time and it doesn't get in the way of the sandbox to know details about the world.

 

[Lanefan]

Well, Hussar said he hates worldbuilding and had a player leave because he wanted to know more about the setting and Hussar didn't have answers, so for all I know, "deep" in this case could mean anything beyond the sheer surface.

Sure, lots of things can be created during play. I had to create all sorts of details on the fly because the players wanted to know about them and I didn't think about them ahead of time. But I also find it helps make the world richer by coming up with at least some of those details ahead of time.

And as I said way up thread, for many people, creating these details is fun. It's not a huge waste of time and it doesn't get in the way of the sandbox to know details about the world.

We may not agree on some things but we're in lockstep on this one.