Star Wars Rewatch

[Ruin Explorer]

Maybe that sounds ridiculous to you.

Respectfully, it absolutely does. But we've all had ridiculous nerd moments, I'm sure. I know I have.

Maybe I just aged out of it and was looking for a scapegoat.

I suspect this is likely, but only you know your heart!

Like, for me, I "lost interest" in the Star Wars at a very specific point, which was when Jar Jar Binks came on screen, and stayed on screen. I understand it must have "hit different" if you were a kid when that happened though.

Since then I have regained some interest, but it's a more distant/casual one. Whereas Star TREK is still very dear to my heart, despite countless terrible crimes by various shows (VOY, ENT, Kelvinverse movies, esp. into Darkness, Disco to some extent, etc. etc.)

 

[The Firebird]

I suspect this is likely, but only you know your heart!

Like, for me, I "lost interest" in the Star Wars at a very specific point, which was when Jar Jar Binks came on screen, and stayed on screen. I understand it must have "hit different" if you were a kid when that happened though.

Since then I have regained some interest, but it's a more distant/casual one. Whereas Star TREK is still very dear to my heart, despite countless terrible crimes by various shows (VOY, ENT, Kelvinverse movies, esp. into Darkness, Disco to some extent, etc. etc.)

Could be. I will add, I did see TFA several times in theaters. I brought friends. I had a great time. Yeah, it doesn't hold up...but at that moment, I liked seeing Star Wars in theaters. I don't anymore.

(Well, I still do. I saw TPM in the rerelease).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But beyond that, just the way he says things about killing the past if you have to. It feels like it is speaking to the audience. It doesn't feel like something Kylo would have said in that moment

It lined up with the character's motivations and beliefs, so I guess for me it works.

I think it's weird that people read it as the overall message of the movie given with was a badguy turning back into badguy mode when he was saying it (after briefly being helpful/decent). Trevorrow's script (which to be clear, overall was just as bad as TRoS) kind of ran with that direction too.

I get that this is what the Jedi Order might have done in the Prequels.

Yeah and for me that's how I read it.

But I think what we needed, what we didn't have, and what it really would have been kind of Johnson's job to give us (and which might still be given in some future Filoni cartoon or something) is an insight into what was going on at the Jedi training place at the time this happened.

Like, had Luke basically started following Prequel-era Jedi approaches because they seemed to work or something? Or because perhaps a prequel-era survivor(definitely not Ahsoka though!) or force ghost was influencing him? So he got into thinking in bad Prequel-Jedi ways?

So I do feel like it was a bit of a leap. Like the lead-up should have been dwelled on more.

Not only is it insulting to an audience who have justification for believing in Luke's goodness and optimism, it drags down the family connection there.

I guess I don't see the insulting bit, because Luke didn't do it.

Loads of people have had a very bad idea and nearly acted on it. Everyone over the age of about 20, maybe. Luke isn't a saint. He nearly fell to the Dark Side before. But then he didn't. Was that "insulting"?

 

[Gradine]

Sometimes there are things that don't make any kind of sense, even though you know that it's a (relatively) common thought. Like, I've seen people say "I don't understand how anyone can like The Last Jedi". Conversely, I can understand why some people don't like TLJ. It's a great film but it's definitely not for everyone, it does have significant pacing issues (though show me a Star Wars film that doesn't!). It has things to say about the world that people are bound to disagree with (those people are wrong, but we're not diving into that can of worms). It's particularly unsubtle about its messages, but people still didn't pick up on "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" in the prequels and there's still plenty of "Star Wars can't be about the Vietnam War, that would make The Empire based on America!!" so maybe Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped. There is definitely legitimate criticism of the film. There's also a ton of bad faith criticism out there, but that's usually easy to spot (ex. Laura Dern's hair color gets mentioned). None of this should really be news to anyone.

Now there are Star Wars opinions that fill me with the "How could anyone...." It almost became consensus at one point that not only was Revenge of the Sith good, but that it was even better than Return of the Jedi, and that always makes me do the Psyduck meme thing. The other? Thinking that The Last Jedi, a film that is as much if not more of a love letter to fans than The Force Awakens, hates Star Wars fans.

It's not fair to say I can't even get it; I kind of can, because I've read all the arguments, but they really all depend on either a shallow, incorrect, and/or incomplete reading of the film. The best case I can see is being upset that Luke/Leia/Han didn't end up living happily ever after, and you know what? That's fair, I guess. Kind of unsure how you'd have any kind of stakes in a sequel if that were the case, but I do still kind of get it. Incidentally, I really don't think this is built in to love/preference for the old EU... if anything the EU puts the big three through the wringer even worse.

Now, there's a couple of scenes/lines that are often brought up in this argument. The biggest, I think, is Kylo Ren's "Let the past die, kill it, if you must." The quote here makes sense as a dig at fans... if Kylo is meant to be film's mouthpiece. Reminder though: he's the bad guy. I get that there are people who think the Empire/First Order are/were in the right, but I think of those folks less as "Star Wars fans" and more as "absolutely horrifying".

The other is Luke, when he tosses the lightsaber and sneers out about he's not going to "Face down the entire army with nothing but a laser sword." Spoilers: he ends up doing exactly that. And it's extremely important and impactful. Because that's the point. That's the point of the whole damn sequel trilogy (well, the two movies that actually have a point, anyway, TFA & TLJ). Luke has grown cynical and thinks the mythos of the Jedi (hint: Star Wars) is meaningless or worse. Spoilers: he's wrong. And he learns he's wrong.

These two movies in particular have a very clear stand-in for "Star Wars fans" (actually TLJ adds a second but we'll get to that), and it's not even subtle: it's Rey. She is an uber-Star Wars fan. She's obsessed with Jedi. She's incredibly enthusiastic. Hell, TFA has her literally playing with Star Wars toys. It's one of the first things we see her do. Like I said, unsubtle. Those would call Rey a "Mary Sue" but then also say TLJ hates Star Wars fans are pretty much contradicting themselves. I'm not going to entertain that particular argument beyond pointing out how much those films are absolutely littered with her failures. Anyway, TLJ has Rey trying to get Luke to do something about what's going on (she fails, more or less; Luke needs a talking to from Yoda to really get it through his thick skull) because she knows how important the Jedi and their mythology are to providing hope. Hell, she steals the Jedi teachings anyway! And then Luke actually goes through with showing up! And it matters!

And that brings us to that second "Star Wars fan" stand-in that TLJ gives us, and it's really this that's what ties the whole Canto Bight business thematically into the rest of the film. It's the little slave boy. He has hope. He tells others the story of Luke Skywalker's incredibly heroic last stand. He plays with his broom handle like it's a lightsaber (and let's be real, who hasn't?). We see he's got the Force. Because that and Rey the nobody (do not get me started) drive home the major theme: the Force is for everybody. Star Wars is for everybody. Star Wars is for the fans.

Again, none of this is subtle, and so it's the one argument that has never really held any kind of water for me. And it doesn't help that the most logical arguments are the ones that are in bad faith (see: purple hair, "woke", etc). Which has made the illogical arguments suspect, often unfairly. People are often wrong. People think Sarah Conner is a great mom. People think Tyler Durden is right about everything. Hell, they think he's right about anything.

But, and I cannot think of any better way to get across that it is a very clear and simple fact that The Last Jedi thinks extremely highly of Star Wars fans, loves Star Wars fans*

*Unless you're one of those "fans" that thinks the Empire/First Order should've been the real good guys, in which case yeah, TLJ hates you, but also... so does pretty much all the rest of Star Wars, so... congratulations, I guess?

 

[payn]

Will get back to the rest but the big issue with Luke was him trying to kill his own Nephew. The reason people have trouble with that part is Luke is the guy who saw the good in his father, Vader. Even Mark Hamil had issues with it. The rest of the hermit Luke stuff was fine. They were trying to turn him into Yoda, which I got. That stuff wasn’t the issue. It was having Luke do the one thing his character wouldn’t

To be fair, his character didnt. It was a momentary reaction to great fear, but he held true al beit too late to help Ben.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Now there are Star Wars opinions that fill me with the "How could anyone...." It almost became consensus at one point that not only was Revenge of the Sith good, but that it was even better than Return of the Jedi, and that always makes me do the Psyduck meme thing.

As someone who did hold that opinion, I think I understand it.

It was a kind of passing madness, like AotC being better than TPM. People were desperate for the prequels to be good, and not just weird, poorly-edited, terrible dialogue, kinda-racist waffle aimed at kids. And RotS was massively more serious and together than than the previous prequels.

As for RotJ, I can only speak for people I know, but for a long time it was kind of loathed - like a lot of people didn't bother rewatching it the way they'd rewatch the other two, and the Ewoks were kind of intensely off-putting. Especially for younger Gen X/xennial guys, who had a different culture to present nerd culture, which was more rejectionist to "childish things" (where they tend to be embraced now, perhaps excessively even).

On an actual rewatch, RotJ tends to be better than remembered, but still massively worse the other two OT movies, and I think I might still put it as a worse movie than TPM. It's definitely more watchable than RotS or AotC though.

Thinking that The Last Jedi, a film that is as much if not more of a love letter to fans than The Force Awakens, hates Star Wars fans.

Yeah. And it always takes so much explaining to even find out how this "hate" is supposedly expressed. I think the real issue is it's more of a love letter to SW fans of all ages, rather than a love letter to Gen X ones (and there's no question that by far the loudest complaints re: TLJ came from people claiming to be Gen X).

Now, there's a couple of scenes/lines that are often brought up in this argument. The biggest, I think, is Kylo Ren's "Let the past die, kill it, if you must." The quote here makes sense as a dig at fans... if Kylo is meant to be film's mouthpiece. Reminder though: he's the bad guy.

EXACTLY!!!

People are often wrong. People think Sarah Conner is a great mom. People think Tyler Durden is right about everything.

Very well said.

 

[The Soloist]

The Sequels should have started with a 20-minute Luke-Ren New school of Jedi sequence to establish drama and tension, then switch to Rey. The trilogy would have had the same level of gravitas as when Luke learns Vader is his father.

 

[Gradine]

As for RotJ, I can only speak for people I know, but for a long time it was kind of loathed - like a lot of people didn't bother rewatching it the way they'd rewatch the other two, and the Ewoks were kind of intensely off-putting. Especially for younger Gen X/xennial guys, who had a different culture to present nerd culture, which was more rejectionist to "childish things" (where they tend to be embraced now, perhaps excessively even).

On an actual rewatch, RotJ tends to be better than remembered, but still massively worse the other two OT movies, and I think I might still put it as a worse movie than TPM. It's definitely more watchable than RotS or AotC though.

When I was a kid, I would watch RotJ the most. I was obsessed with the space combat of Star Wars, and that was the OT film that had by far the best of it. I was playing X-Wing and TIE Fighter, I was designing my own Lego ships because those weren't really a thing that much and when they were my parents were way too cheap to buy them for me. I was building D6 Star Wars character sheets and ship stats for all my Legos. I was definitely born on the other side of The Ewok Line, so that stuff was fine for me, incredibly fun even. I always thought back fondly on it, even as a I aged and I "understood" that the other two films were "better".

Last winter we did a OT re-watch with the kid (just turned 10). The consensus of all three of us which the best one was? Return of the Jedi, easily. Okay, maybe not "best", but definitely our "favorites". Even my Ewok-skeptic wife. Watching our child cackling over stupid Ewok traps taking out Stormtroopers and walking really helped sell her on it. And this is a kid who felt absolutely nothing for Jar Jar. It's totally fine when Star Wars is for kids. Great, even.

 

[The Firebird]

I think this is a really great post, but there are also some things I disagree with. Sorry, this post is mostly about the disagreements.

It's particularly unsubtle about its messages, but people still didn't pick up on "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" in the prequels and there's still plenty of "Star Wars can't be about the Vietnam War, that would make The Empire based on America!!" so maybe Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped. There is definitely legitimate criticism of the film. There's also a ton of bad faith criticism out there, but that's usually easy to spot (ex. Laura Dern's hair color gets mentioned). None of this should really be news to anyone.

I think the key difference is that Star Wars isn't about the Vietnam war. It references Vietnam; it has connections to Vietnam; but it's not just another take on the war. Vietnam is just one on a list of dozens of references and influences it has.

The same goes with the prequels--it references contemporary events, it has a view of contemporary events, but it isn't about them. This is why people don't pick up on those aspects; they're present for those who are looking, but they're not banging you over the head with them.

I don't think this is true for TLJ. I agree that criticism of her hair color is often in bad faith. I don't think it's necessarily so. Aesthetics matter. They're the visual language the director uses to make connections to real world topics. In this case, it's not subtle, and we know exactly what point Johnson is making. That's why he made that aesthetic choice. (In case you think this is in bad faith, I'll reiterate--I agree with Johnson's point!)

Contrast Lucas: the Empire's colors are black and white, they deploy Stormtroopers, they enforce conformity in dress and action, they are almost entirely male. They aren't flying Hueys, they aren't dropping napalm, their policy is not one of containment. If Lucas wanted to comment on Vietnam more directly, he could have done so, and would have made different aesthetic choices. Instead the specific becomes universal.

But, and I cannot think of any better way to get across that it is a very clear and simple fact that The Last Jedi thinks extremely highly of Star Wars fans, loves Star Wars fans*

*Unless you're one of those "fans" that thinks the Empire/First Order should've been the real good guys, in which case yeah, TLJ hates you, but also... so does pretty much all the rest of Star Wars, so... congratulations, I guess?

I mean, I think this is how it comes across, yeah? "This film loves you, unless you believe X, in which case it hates you." And the problem is the people making that criticism see it as a very clear line, and think its really obvious. But not everyone feels that way. It's a very black and white reading. And people who aren't fully on board with Johnson feel that, and wonder if the "yeah, this film hates you" applies to them.

It would be nice if everyone who had that response secretly had odious views and therefore it was ok. Indeed, when I criticize TLJ, I sometimes feel people are scrutinizing my words for any proof I have odious views, and therefore my criticism can be rejected wholesale.

I don't think that's the case.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In this case, it's not subtle, and we know exactly what point Johnson is making. That's why he made that aesthetic choice.

Please don't "we" on this.

This is part of why people think it's "bad faith" (and as you say, a lot of it is clearly is), because of "we all know" stuff like this!

Let me be very clear. I didn't think, for one bloody heartbeat that her hair colour was supposed to indicate anything at all. Maybe I'm too deep in Star Wars lore, but I thought that was just Star Wars set dressing to me. No more strange a choice than a thousand others.

This is what I mean re: backfill/projection from his later movies too. If you look at Looper and Brick, characters are making some Fashion Choices, like wow, that is... uh a thing. They're not "political" or w/e, they're just Fashion Choices. To me this was in the same zone. It's Stars Wars, people wear some weird-ass stuff.

But again to be very clear - this is not a "we" thing. This is a "you" thing. It's fine for you to see it that way. It's deeply messed up for you to assert the audience as a whole did, and reads like backfill, because it's representative of attitudes from years later, not those years.

I mean, I think this is how it comes across, yeah? "This film loves you, unless you believe X, in which case it hates you." And the problem is the people making that criticism see it as a very clear line, and think its really obvious. But not everyone feels that way. It's a very black and white reading. And people who aren't fully on board with Johnson feel that, and wonder if the "yeah, this film hates you" applies to them.

The OT hates anyone who sides with the Empire.

Yet loads of idiots did, including famed science fiction writer David Brin (see his famous article on the subject).

But what they didn't do was say the movies were bad as a result (well, David Brin kind of did, but I feel like he was being contrarian on purpose).

So how is this different?

I sometimes feel people are scrutinizing my words for any proof I have odious views, and therefore my criticism can be rejected wholesale.

I think this is a problem people have where they project stuff on to others that isn't actually happening. Nothing you've said make your "political orientation suspect" or w/e, it just makes you seem like you're really working overtime to try and justify what is probably basically a purely aesthetic dislike of TLJ into something deeper and more justified than mere aesthetics.

And I get that, I've been there - I'm sure I did the same with RotJ in the 1990s or 2000s. But I'm not seeing any real stuff beyond aesthetics. The rest seems like rationalizations.