D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But this is obviously false, at least for classic D&D.

Insofar as the early D&D is barely "designed" at all, though?

Classic D&D is a bunch of disparate subsystems glommed together. And early writing about those rules do not give, to me, at least, a clear image of well-defined goals for design.

There are certainly elements in there that are useful for sandbox play, but they are also useful for other things - say, f'rex, giving folks who haven't ever created a dungeon or city before a hand up on creativity - even if it isn't in what we'd call a sandbox environment today.
 

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Well, that's an opportunity, but it won't be one you can exploit by being confrontational.

If you are actually curious about their point, and what they think (as opposed to being interested in proving them wrong), you can ask questions about their particular needs and desires, and how they game is better, for them.

Engage in being curious, rather than in trying to judge, and all that.

Sure, but we rarely get actual descriptions of how something works. If we do, it's typically just a copy/paste of the rules with little or no context or explanation. In context of what we've been discussing, people have been claiming other options are "better", whether that's running a sandbox, social encounter or exploration.

If you say X is better, how is it better? Is there anything I can apply to my D&D game? Because it's easy to say that it's faster to prep up a game in Ironsworn than D&D but it's kind of meaningless because they have such a different approach to what the game even is. If you want to talk about how you take ideas from Ironsworn to run a collaborative world-building game, it's still wouldn't be something that I want but at least it would apply to the game that we are theoretically discussing. Threads meander quite a bit, but this one is labeled D&D general so IMHO people should at least make some effort to tie it back to D&D now and then.

But too often it's not discussion of why something works better for someone else or an explanation of why they believe it, it's just proclamation as if it were fact. I don't claim to be perfect but if I disagree I usually try to explain why, that or I'm trying to get a better understanding.
 

If a person enjoys using a particular game for a particular task, and someone else comes in and claims that the game is in fact "adequate" or even bad at that task compared to some other game they favor (which the person may dislike for other reasons), it is easy to conclude that the person is being told their enjoyment is wrong in some way, and that may result in "strong reactions".
This seems directly relevant to the thread topic/title.

If someone reacts "strongly" to being told that the game they are playing is not the best game for their sort of game play, and that some other game is noticeably better, than it seems like that person needs to get a bit of perspective.
 

This seems directly relevant to the thread topic/title.

If someone reacts "strongly" to being told that the game they are playing is not the best game for their sort of game play, and that some other game is noticeably better, than it seems like that person needs to get a bit of perspective.
If the person is told this in a "obviously I'm right and there's no room for argument" sort of way, I can understand a strong reaction.
 

It's not going to make it better for people who like creating or learning world lore.
Probably someone has mentioned but the rules for Ironsworn are free. I've not played the game but when I did PbtA I had a similar experience to Hussar for a time...like, "wow, it's so easy to run games, so easy to improvise this system, I can get so much done".

That faded after a while because the lack of fixed content and challenges started to bother me. It felt less and less like a game and more like a storytelling aid. A bit too much anything goes.

After that phase I entered my "lots of structure is good, fixed worlds are good" era, where I am now.
The problem is there is lot of subjectivity about the topic it is "good" at. Is it easier to make a sandbox in Ironsworn than D&D? For me, no, because Ironsworn isn't creating something that I consider (for me) to be a sandbox. It's a storytelling game, it constructs an emergent narrative.
Ironsworn is no more a "storytelling game" for constructing "emergent narratives" than is classic D&D.

Both are games in which one participant - the GM - manages backstory, scene-framing and adjudication of resolution; and in which the other(s) - the player(s) - play(s) the game by declaring actions for a particular imagined person moving through the world and the situations that the GM is presenting to them. And in both games, the shared fiction matters to the resolution of those declared actions - this is what makes them both recognisable as (and straightforwardly recognisable as) RPGs.

The most obvious way in which they differ - especially in the context of this discussion, about sandboxing - can be seen by reference to their rules for resolving a journey:

The Ironwsworn rules were posted by me, upthread. To get started, they require a decision to be made about the degree of danger/challenge that the journeying characters face (is it troublesome, dangerous, formidable, extreme or epic?). Then, resolution can begin - that is, the dice can be rolled. Once the outcome is noted - either reaching a waypoint or paying the price - there needs to be narration of that. But that narration doesn't need to be known in advance of the rolling. This is what makes it possible to resolve the journey with little or no preparation. This is also what makes it easy for the GM to involve the players - for instance, asking the players to suggest a likely waypoint (eg "Your character is from these parts - what's the first major port of call when sailing down this river?") - because (i) you don't need these questions answered to resolve the action declaration, and (ii) the players don't get any particular advantage from answering one way rather than another. There's no "conflict of interest".

The classic D&D rules for resolving a journey are pretty well-known, I think. The GM refers to a prepared map (often, even typically, a hex map), and correlates the scale of the hexes with the movement rate of the PCs. The players tell the GM which direction their PCs are travelling in; a roll is made to see if the PCs become lost; and the GM then then plots the PCs' movement on the map. The GM uses two methods, concurrently, to determine what the PCs meet/experience: encounter rolls, which can be improv-ed similarly to Ironsworn; and reference to the map key, which records information about at least some of the hexes. That second bit is - at least canonically - prepared in advance, together with the preparation of the map itself. That advance preparation is what makes the GM's narration of events, especially advance events, non-arbitrary/hosing. And because the content of the map and key directly affects the players' chances of their PCs successfully completing their journey, there is a good reason not to ask the players for a lot of input as the journey is resolved - because the players do have a conflict of interest.​

If, by "sandbox", is meant a game in which the GM has prepared that map and key in advance - so that the players are, as a central part of the play experience, learning what the GM has authored about the setting - then classic D&D is clearly going to facilitate a sandbox. Whereas Ironsworn probably won't - it's journey rules can be combined with a map and key, but that's not necessary and probably won't bring out the strongest features of the game. This seems to be what @TheFirebird has in mind in saying that they don't consider Ironsworn to be a sandbox game.

If, by "sandbox", is meant a game in which there are no limits (beyond genre, good taste, table agreements, and prior established fiction) on where the players can have their PCs journey and what those PCs might experience - which is what @Hussar seemed to mean, not too far upthread (post 2109 - "totally sandbox, total player freedom") - then Ironsworn seems to the better game. Because inherent to the resolution technique of classic D&D is that the GM has already decided some stuff, and this constrains and delimits what the players might have their PCs do.

And you can't have it both ways. If the players are going to learn pre-authored stuff, then that stuff has to be pre-authored; and the way they will learn it, in RPG play (as opposed to, say, just reading the GM's setting bible), is by experiencing the way the GM uses it to tell them what consequences flow form the players' action declarations for their PCs. In other words, of necessity that stuff imposes limits. That's its point.

Conversely, if a game is being plaid in which there is "total player freedom" in Hussar's sense - ie the fiction about where the PCs arrive and what they experience is made up on the spot, perhaps by incorporating players' answers to questions - then, by definition, there is no pre-authored material for the players to learn. Rather, everyone at the table is learning, together and as an output of hte process of play, what their shared fictional seting is like.

To me, the contrast I've just set out - which begins with resolution techniques for journeys, and relates those to prep, and then to player experience - seems fairly straightforward. But no doubt some posters will disagree with it!
 

Insofar as the early D&D is barely "designed" at all, though?

Classic D&D is a bunch of disparate subsystems glommed together.
Which is exactly why it's so flexible and can support so many different styles and types of play, with 'sandbox' being but one of many: you can tweak or add or drop a subsystem to bring things closer to what you/your table want without butchering the whole game in the process.

Disparate subsystems are a feature, not a bug.
And early writing about those rules do not give, to me, at least, a clear image of well-defined goals for design.
The goal likely amounted to little more than "build a playable game". Given that much of what they were doing involved designing a previously-unknown type of game, I'd have to say they succeeded admirably.
 

we rarely get actual descriptions of how something works. If we do, it's typically just a copy/paste of the rules with little or no context or explanation.
This thread has had plenty of explanation of how some non-D&D RPGs - Ironsworn and Burning Wheel - work. It's also had links to free DTRPG downloads of both systems, for those who are curious to find out more about how they work.
 

Insofar as the early D&D is barely "designed" at all, though?

Classic D&D is a bunch of disparate subsystems glommed together. And early writing about those rules do not give, to me, at least, a clear image of well-defined goals for design.

There are certainly elements in there that are useful for sandbox play, but they are also useful for other things - say, f'rex, giving folks who haven't ever created a dungeon or city before a hand up on creativity - even if it isn't in what we'd call a sandbox environment today.

I'll go a step further and posit that "game design" as it is often discussed on these boards has nothing to do with making a game. It is a rough collection pseudo-academic models that are applied to games after they are created as an attempt at analysis, not a part of game creation. Furthermore, it has fundamentally less to do with a game's success (in terms of goals, enjoyment, playability, or financial success) than social dynamics, marketing, or distribution.
 

And you can't have it both ways. If the players are going to learn pre-authored stuff, then that stuff has to be pre-authored; and the way they will learn it, in RPG play (as opposed to, say, just reading the GM's setting bible), is by experiencing the way the GM uses it to tell them what consequences flow form the players' action declarations for their PCs. In other words, of necessity that stuff imposes limits. That's its point.

Conversely, if a game is being plaid in which there is "total player freedom" in Hussar's sense - ie the fiction about where the PCs arrive and what they experience is made up on the spot, perhaps by incorporating players' answers to questions - then, by definition, there is no pre-authored material for the players to learn. Rather, everyone at the table is learning, together and as an output of hte process of play, what their shared fictional seting is like.
A sandbox doesn't have to be all of A or B. Plenty of sandboxes are built on prepped material and also made up on the fly as a result of the players probing the setting and the GM making things or resetting to rolls in the moment
 

I do think you can talk about objective things though much more easily. You can measure how long combat takes, you can measure how long prep takes. That is pretty easy stuff to measure and discuss.
You....do realize that the length and complexity of prep for doing sandboxing is what Hussar was describing.

But this is obviously false, at least for classic D&D.
For its time, perhaps. But "for its time" means "when there were exceedingly few TTRPGs and we knew almost nothing about designing them".
 

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