D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Bedrockgames]

Saying that if people really prioritized agency they'd play the game you prefer is the issue. We take different approaches and the only reason one has "more" agency is because you measure it using artificial criteria designed to suit your narrative.

Yeah I said earlier I think both sandbox play and the systems mentioned, like Blades in the Dark and PbtA, seem to all be a reaction against railroads and in favor of agency. It need not be a zero sum game.

 

[Maxperson]

Despite being over 100,000 words, my Northern Marches manuscript for my upcoming Majestic Fantasy Realms Kickstarter barely scratches the surface of what an adventuring party could be sticking their noses into.

Just this little area in the campaign I been running in the MFR

View attachment 405378
Five Mile Hexes

Started with.

Smoking Bay (Hex 2101)​

The Mountain That Fell created the Smoking Bay and for a century afterwards, pillars of steam rose from the waters and were seen for hundreds of miles away. The pillars of steam have since subsided, but the name remains. The sea bottom is a confusing maze of rubble with many areas unexplored. Many sea creatures have moved in to take advantage of the chaotic terrain to hide.

The Black Marshes (Hex 1905)​

The impact of The Mountain That Fell fractured this region forming the marshes that give the area its name. The marshes are fifteen miles north-south and over fifty miles east-west. The impact left several large lakes connected by a confusing maze of waterways and bogs. It offers a convenient place to hide for those who want keep their activities away from prying eyes. The water is black in color caused by the minerals leeching from the surrounding soil and vegetation.

2003 Castle Blackmarsh​

Pop: 1,294, Human (Ramosian); Ruler: Governor Tyrilas, Elf (Greywoods. M), FTR 4; Market Size: III; Resource: Market; Military: Elves (20 troops): Med. Foot 4; Longbow 8; Horse Archers 6; Hvy. Cavalry w/Bows 2; Humans (60 troops): Light Foot 21; Med. Foot 9; Shortbow 12; Lgt. Cavalry 12; Med. Cavalry 6;

Castle Blackmarsh is the largest settlement in the Blackmarsh region. It was founded over a thousand years ago by the Bright Empire and served as the main port for various settlements and conclaves of magic users. Back then, the governor appointed by the emperor ruled the castle, which was advised by a council of magic users and merchants.

It survived the fall of the Bright Empire and became an independent city-state dominating the settlements along the southern shore of the Smoking Bay (Terrain, 2101). The economic decline caused most of the outlying settlements to be abandoned a century after the empire’s collapse. The mages established themselves in Castle Blackmarsh, forming a conclave in the castle.

They dominated the city-state for several centuries occasionally allying with the other races to defeat common threats. In that time the town's population stabilized and found a small amount of prosperity as adventurers entered the Blackmarsh region searching for viz.

A century ago, an ambitious magic-user named Atacyl Oathbinder (M) maneuvered his way into control of the council. He seized absolute control of Castle Blackmarsh and ruled as a tyrant for several decades. It is rumored that he accomplished this through a strange helmet capable of mind control. His attempt at empire building was thwarted. The rangers from Castle Blackoak (Locales, 1538) retook Castle Blackmarsh with a combined force of elves, dwarves, and humans, along with Blackmarsh exiles.

The elves took control of the settlement and appointed a governor at the head of the reformed council. Castle Blackmarsh, the home of the wizard’s conclave, was the site of many Atacyl’s experiments and magical researches. Even after a century of rule, not all of the levels that Atacyl created have been explored.

Forty years ago, Atacyl reappeared as a vampire magic user and attempted to retake Castle Blackmarsh. He was supposedly destroyed by a band of adventurers, and his base at the old Lanis Lighthouse (Locales, 1802) was purged.

2202 Sunken Treasure Fleet
On the sea bottom, are the sunken remains of the last treasure ships to sail from Blackmarsh before the fall of the Bright Empire. Gold, silver adamant, and sealed arcane coffers with viz lie in the hulls of a dozen galleys and scattered across the seabed. Taking residence amid the crumbling ships is a school of several dozen sharks (2 HD) along with a giant sea serpent. (12 HD)

2203 Inuacus Keep​

Pop: 200, Human (Ramosian); Ruler: Sir Alim Causari, FTR 10, Human (Ramosian, M); Market Size: VI; Resource: Farm; Military: Light Foot 18; Med. Foot 7; Shortbow 10; Light Cavalry 10; Med. Cavalry 5;

This keep is an outpost of Castle Blackmarsh and protects the surrounding farms from monsters moving north from the Black Marshes, as well as Atacyl loyalists located in Jorvik (Locales, 2406). Sir Causari is the leader of a faction that wants to see the elves leave Castle Blackmarsh and restore human rule.

2304 Ruins of Ramat​

Located on Witch Hill several miles from Inuacus Keep (Locales, 2203) are the foundations of Ramat, an old ruined Thothian monastery from the time of the Bright Empire. It was home to a potent holy artifact known as the Spear of Ramat. All records on the monastery were lost after the empire’s retreat. In the present, the young daughter of Governor Causari of Inuacus Keep lost her favorite pet dog while on a picnic near the ruins. The governor will gladly pay an adventuring party to search the ruins for the dog. (see the Ruins of Ramat, from Brave Halfling Publishing.)

---

To this during the campaign.
View attachment 405379
.2 Mile Hexes

I mapped this area,and others near Castle Blackmarsh, because that’s where the party decided to go at the start of the campaign. I made a rough note that there were humanoid tribes occupying the peninsula east of Blackmarsh. These tribes had been brought in a few years earlier and were being organized by a priest of Sarrath, the god of war and order (lawful evil), who harbored dreams of conquering Castle Blackmarsh. I also noted the presence of an abandoned stronghold built by a group of high-level adventurers about a century after the fall of the Bright Empire (which occurred 500 years ago), during a time when Castle Blackmarsh had been left to fend for itself.

When the party decided to head into this area,drawn by the ruins of Ramat, an abandoned monastery tied to the religion of one of the PC clerics,they heard rumors of kobold raids from the folks at Inacus Keep. This led them to begin exploring the peninsula, eventually uncovering the conspiracy and vanquishing the Priest of Sarrath.

I used a combination of published material and my own work to flesh out the region with the time I had available.

In general, I like to map out stuff as part of my first pass. For the past 20 years, I have been using poetic maps as an outline of what to prepare next.


View attachment 405380


View attachment 405381

Love it! And I totally agree. I've said multiple times that despite all the stuff for FR that 3e put out, it still covers less than 5%, probably less than 1% of what's there. I don't understand the people who say that there's no room in FR for DM creativity. You can fit an aircraft carrier in the empty spaces.

 

[Maxperson]

This is as bad as oil arguments on a motorcycle forum.

Tastes great!

 

[Maxperson]

If people are going to use agency definition to mischaracterize sandboxes: what else can be expected ? There is a reason people are pushing back hard on this idea

Yep. I've told the folks that constantly redefine terms and use disparaging terms for the playstyles they don't like, that they are derailing their own threads from the OP. It's a form of self-sabotage. Which is a shame. If they just approached it with neutral terms and used the standard definitions, some of those threads could result in some really interesting discussions.

 

[pemerton]

Saying that if people really prioritized agency they'd play the game you prefer is the issue. We take different approaches and the only reason one has "more" agency is because you measure it using artificial criteria designed to suit your narrative.

Suppose that someone GMs exclusively adventure paths. And insisted to you that players in their game have as much agency in your living world sandbox, and that they prioritised player agency to the same degree as them.

Would that prompt you to retract your remark that "If I didn't think agency was important I'd just run a linear campaign or use a module" - a remark which*clearly* implies that an AP game does not prioritise agency?

Or would you form the view that the AP-er is mistaken?

Also: why are your criteria "natural" but mine "artificial"? Are the criteria by which you judge that your RPGing involves more agency than AP play artificial ones?

 

[SableWyvern]

Suppose that someone GMs exclusively adventure paths. And insisted to you that players in their game have as much agency in your living world sandbox, and that they prioritised player agency to the same degree as them.

That's a nice hypothetical, but is anyone actually claiming that Adventure Paths inherently offer the same degree of agency as game styles specifically designed to promote agency? Is that person part of a large group of like-minded people?

I don't think it's controversial to suggest that APs tend to limit agency. I think it's very likely that the people who run APs with more agency would tend to agree that they have to work against some of the inbuilt limits of most APs to make that happen. Any given GM may run APs with lots of player agency; that doesn't mean APs are designed to promote and support this as a priority.

If you can find a community of AP fans promoting the claim that the inherent strengths the Actual Play format include promoting player agency, feel free to ask them to come here and defend themselves. Otherwise, this entire line of reasoning is based on a false equivalence.

"My style intentionally makes heavy use of randomisers to determine outcomes."

"Not as much as you think. My style of play does it much better; yours actually doesn't make good use of randomisers."

"Do you not see how you're attacking my preferred style and treating matters of preference as if they are absolute truths?"

"Well, earlier you explained how your style uses randomisers more than Amber Diceless. Why is that OK? Suppose some Amber Diceless player tried telling you that their game uses randomisers well?"

 

[zakael19]

Love it! And I totally agree. I've said multiple times that despite all the stuff for FR that 3e put out, it still covers less than 5%, probably less than 1% of what's there. I don't understand the people who say that there's no room in FR for DM creativity. You can fit an aircraft carrier in the empty spaces.

I remember as a pretty young teen getting the 3.5e FR book and being so excited about all the potential stories in there. And then all the products and buzz forever are Sword Coast!!!111 (and occasional Icewind Dale)

 

[Faolyn]

The last sentence in this quote contradicts the first. Because if you did grasp the principles that governs how scenes are established in Burning Wheel, and how rolls are called for, then you would see why there was something at stake in being able to see a vessel, and hence why the roll was not unnecessary, but in fact what the game rules called for.

No, there isn't. Either the game tells you there is, or else you're trying to justify your decision to use a roll there, but nothing would change if you had them roll for something different instead.

Also, you (once again) failed to answer my question:

You claimed that BW was better than D&D because it could do scenes that were intimate, high stakes, and have heft, and cited a time when PC 1 tried to convince PC 2 to mend his armor.

If this attempt was nothing more than a die roll or two, how was it intimate, high stakes, or have any heft? It's literally just a die roll! That's arguably the most boring way possible to resolve a social interaction!

If this attempt involved Player 1 and Player 2 actually roleplaying this discussion, using actual words, and the dice were just there to see if Player 1's words were convincing, then how is this any different from D&D or any other RPG that has persuasion skills in it?

 

[hawkeyefan]

So you start out with the declaration that people who run living world campaigns don't prioritize agency. Then you wonder why you get pushback. I may have a different approach to player agency but I absolutely prioritize it. You have no idea what I, or others, prioritize.

If I didn't think agency was important I'd just run a linear campaign or use a module, which is also a perfectly good way of playing.

But as @pemerton pointed out, I didn’t say that you or anyone else doesn’t care about agency, just that at times, there are other things that seem to be higher priority.

I’m basing this only on what people post here.

Saying that if people really prioritized agency they'd play the game you prefer is the issue. We take different approaches and the only reason one has "more" agency is because you measure it using artificial criteria designed to suit your narrative.

I didn’t say that that anyone should play the games I prefer. Everyone should play the games they and their fellow players enjoy.

 

[Maxperson]

I remember as a pretty young teen getting the 3.5e FR book and being so excited about all the potential stories in there. And then all the products and buzz forever are Sword Coast!!!111 (and occasional Icewind Dale)

For 5e it's like that for sure. For 3e, they had all kinds of products detailing things in the South, the East, the North, and much more. And it still barely scratched the surface.