D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[FrogReaver]

5. It's spell level +1 for CO

New encounter guidelines say to not use X2 enemies for PCs. Easy fight for 6 is 7800 xp lvl 9 iirc. That's 10 CR 3s roughly maybe 11 each with 50-70hp roughly.

Mooks at those levels theoretically are CR 2 or 3. Fireball is very mediocre vs a low combat RAW die to hit point inflation

Hence why ramping up CO with crits and no saves in effect is better imho. If I'm not a sorcerer I probably wouldn't be casting it often but I don't think I would bother with fireball much either.

CO at least it's easily added to any spell casting class.

A mook with 50 hp can be kill edon a failed save to a 10d6 fireball, dragon sorc +5 damage and empower. It won't happen all the time, but it's not a particularly low chance of occurring either. Average damage would be 47. Slightly above average rolls and you've achieved killing the 50 hp foe outright.

Chromatic Orb would basically require a crit to do the same thing. Though it can outright kill even the 70 hp foe with and slightly above average damage rolls on a crit.

That's intersting.

 

[Zardnaar]

A mook with 50 hp can be kill edon a failed save to a 10d6 fireball, dragon sorc +5 damage and empower. It won't happen all the time, but it's not a particularly low chance of occurring either. Average damage would be 47. Slightly above average rolls and you've achieved killing the 50 hp foe outright.

Chromatic Orb would basically require a crit to do the same thing. Though it can outright kill even the 70 hp foe with and slightly above average damage rolls on a crit.

That's intersting.

I've seen exploding Sorcererous Burst crits almost kill the 50hp critters.

Recently seen a 62 damage firebolt.

RAW probably not seeing to many 50hp mooks. It's generally the weakest CR2s at level 9.

10d6 fireball vs synaptic static is probably the better option most of the time imho. On paper fireball does more damage but yeah.

I'm only taking 3 blast spelks with any sorcerer though. Scorching Ray, fireball or lightning bolt and synaptic static.

CO if you're not a Dragon Sorcery is a maybe.

I real games I'm seeing very nasty COs more than fireballs. That Sorcerer is using seeking spell and elemental adept. Light Cleric has FB.

I don't see much point in invoker anymore tbh.

 

[FrogReaver]

Question on Empower with Chromatic Orb

Do the number of dice you can reroll carry over to the next attack it makes if unused, or can they only be used on the current attacks damage roll of the spell?

 

[Zardnaar]

Question on Empower with Chromatic Orb

Do the number of dice you can reroll carry over to the next attack it makes if unused, or can they only be used on the current attacks damage roll of the spell?

Apparently you can split ot over all the rolls.

Total dice capped at whatever your Charisma modifier is.

Adds around 10-20% chance of bouncing level 1-3 COs.

Elemental adept adds 5-7%.

Level 4 base chance of bouncing is 92%. Crits start at 92% with a level 1 spell.

 

[FrogReaver]

Apparently you can split ot over all the rolls.

Total dice capped at whatever your Charisma modifier is.

Adds around 10-20% chance of bouncing level 1-3 COs.

Elemental adept adds 5-7%.

Level 4 base chance of bouncing is 92%.

Then this is going to be a mess to calculate. We must first determine the optimal algorithm to use the rerolls. Like if the first attack doesn't bounce how many dice should i reroll there? All? 3? What about if the 3rd of 5 potential attacks doesn't bounce, should i go ahead and use the rest of my dice, or should i just use a couple? Then for the last damage roll if there are any dice leftover, I assume I just optimize the damage at that point.

 

[Zardnaar]

Then this is going to be a mess to calculate. We must first determine the optimal algorithm to use the rerolls. Like if the first attack doesn't bounce how many dice should i reroll there? All? 3? What about if the 3rd of 5 potential attacks doesn't bounce, should i go ahead and use the rest of my dice, or should i just use a couple? Then for the last damage roll if there are any dice leftover, I assume I just optimize the damage at that point.

I'm trusting someone else's math here.

Otherwise it's what I'm seeing in actual play. Elemental Adept turned several non bounces into a bounce the other day.

Empower is better level 1-3 can confirm although idk the % chance.

4+ seeking/accuracy is better. The basic numbers I posted in OP essentially confirm that.

Rough guideline Empower kicks it up next level. Eg level 1 bounces close to level 2 up until level 4 or so.

At least close enough vs well actshulley.....

At 5 you're bouncing 97% anyway iirc.
It's also why I like fae touched. Misty step plus cast CO. Best one ove seen was level 6 vs two paralyzed opponents close enough to free crit both of them. Then hit another 5 targets with another crit. 16d8 X3 plus 8d8 X4.

Downside is RL speed resolving the damn thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

For level 1 CO
Unless you already have a bounce reroll any damage die under average, including both. On the bounce reroll any damage die under average.

For level 2 CO
It's already getting less clear. Computing the reroll chance isn't so bad. You want to reroll at least 2 dice if you don't get a bounce and you can do that on both attacks that can bounce. You should also never reroll dice you achieved a bounce on. However, the circumstances where you should use your 5th reroll and when you should reroll when you already have a single bounce are less clear. 2 bounces leaves you exactly 5 remaining dice to reroll, so that case is actually clear. The accuracy of your attacks likely plays a big factor here as well.

For level 3 CO
We can no longer maximize the chances of a reroll on all attacks. And it may make sense due to non-linear scaling of reroll chances per dice on an attack to wait for a potential future attack roll. Need to actually sit down and crunch a few scenarios to see.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think I can have reasonable success on solving seeking or elemental adept. I don't know that I'll solve for Empower CO any time soon.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think I can have reasonable success on solving seeking or elemental adept. I don't know that I'll solve for Empower CO any time soon.

Huh?

Basically more accurate you are worse seeking is.

Lower level CO is cast at better empower is.

 

[Kinematics]

One thing: did you account for the significant chance to crit on CO with Elven Accuracy? It nearly doubles the damage and I think there's a better than 14% chance to crit with each roll.

Yes, that's accounted for. 14.26% crit chance with Elven Accuracy set.

1. What spell DC were you using for fireball? 17?

18. 20 Cha, 4 PB, and +1 from Innate Sorcery.

2. How are you calculating seeking and empower for Chromatic Orb. I've been trying to think that one through. And for seeking are you assuming only a single of the attacks can be rerolled?

For Empowered Spell, I'm allocating a certain number of reroll dice per bounce. I explained the strategy in this post.

For Seeking Spell, it seems I hadn't updated it when I updated Empowered Spell. It still assumes it applies to all attack rolls. I haven't yet worked out how to make it only a single reroll per sequence, though I think I have an idea.

@Kinematics
Special Request can you add a line for chromatic orb with Elemental Adept Feat and explain your calculation. I've went mind blank on that one as well.

I have Elemental Adept math incorporated into my spreadsheet. Did you want a column like I did with the other metamagic stuff? I'll cut a couple other columns to make room.

Lvl Cast	Base Dmg	w/Emp Spell	% Gain	Elven Acc	% Gain	w/Ele Adept	% Gain
1	17.86	26.58	149%	20.10	113%	18.73	105%
2	33.09	49.89	151%	38.22	115%	36.22	109%
3	59.51	84.49	142%	71.15	120%	65.90	111%
4	98.92	115.7	117%	122.9	124%	106.53	108%
5	146.0	160.2	110%	188.1	129%	150.76	103%
6	193.5	205.3	106%	257.5	133%	194.75	101%