D&D 5E (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[ECMO3]

Also the new indomitable seems reaaaaally good for this kinda thing. Definitely one of the better changes in the new version.

If by better you mean more powerful you are right, if by better you mean more fun in play I would disagree.

 

[ECMO3]

Rush Distance? My understanding was that all the champions were Bow users.

What wall spell are you proposing the caster uses?

They are GWM martials using primarily a Greatsword with 20 Dexterity so they can use a bow well too if for some reason they can't get to the target.

If you are building casters for this I think you want Bards with Spike Growth, Otilukes Sphere, Etherealness, Time Stop, Blink, Mordenkanians Hound, Conjure Animals, insect Plague, Power Word Stun, Wall of Ice and Sending.

 

[ECMO3]

On a side note, I think everyone is a bit too focused on the initiative. Even losing initiative I suspect the fighters would have won because they can just save against almost anything the casters might want to do multiple times in this encounter. The only difference might be is if the casters have some prep time, even a round might change things.

Initiative is Huge. They are 18th level casters. If you win initiative you kill 2 of them. If they win initiative they unleash spells that flat prevent you from killing them for several rounds.

 

[FrogReaver]

They are GWM martials using primarily a Greatsword with 20 Dexterity so they can use a bow well too if for some reason they can't get to the target.

If you are building casters for this I think you want Bards with Spike Growth, Otilukes Sphere, Etherealness, Time Stop, Blink, Mordenkanians Hound, Conjure Animals, insect Plague, Power Word Stun, Wall of Ice and Sending.

I don’t see how any of that significantly helps.

 

[FrogReaver]

Initiative is Huge. They are 18th level casters. If you win initiative you kill 2 of them. If they win initiative they unleash spells that flat prevent you from killing them for several rounds.

Yes. Initiative is huge. My claim that the Fighters probably still win without initiative wasn’t diminishing the general importance of initiative. It was noting just how far in the lead they were in this scenario.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Rush Distance? My understanding was that all the champions were Bow users.

What wall spell are you proposing the caster uses?

I believe that they primarily used bows, but they still spent the ASIs to raise Strength to 20 and had magic greatswords. They didn't even pick up Sharpshooter.
Blocking line of sight would be a first move to try to buy some time against them, but they could run in and use their blindsight to counter most fog spells.

Wall of Ice/Stone would probably be the best bet to try to hold them back for a bit. They could just teleport through a wall of force.
Their melee capabilities allow then to hack through wall spells in quick order, but it might buy enough time.

 

[ECMO3]

I don’t see how any of that significantly helps.

Etherealness keeps them from hitting you, but it does not stop things you left on the battlefield from hitting them and it is a relatively constricted battlefield So something like this if 4 Bards beat all 4 fighters in initiative:

Bard 1: Time Stop - Blink, Modenkainan's Hound, Truesight, Otilukes Resilient Sphere
Bard 2: Time Stop - Conjure Animals, Mordenkainans hound, Blink, Etherealness
Bard 3: Time Stop - Spike Growth, Modenkainans Hound, Blink, Etherealness
Bard 4: Time Stop - Wall of Ice, Mordenkainan's Hound, Blink, Etherealness


The amount of spells you can cast with timestop varies, but you always cast the spells that are bolded. This makes all 4 of your casters undamagable and they have minor damaging effects on the battlefield. Bard 1 would cast Sending to tell Bard 2 where the bad guys are so he could move and move his Conjured animals.

There are other spells you could use instead - Call Lightning, Moon Beam, grasping Vine, etc. The concentration damaging spells above last 10 minutes meaning you coud be ethereal for 100 rounds while doing a little bit of damage every round.

This would wear them down over time. It would work I think only because the battlefield is constrained.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

I think the Reaver of may have been asking: how does that help? In reference to out-DPR-ing martials.

I guess in a roundabout way they are out-DPR'ing them if they are doing no dmg. Just with a pretty fragile jenga-tower pre-strategized scenario (they are like the X-men of bards ). Though that scenario can highlight the importance of initiative advantage in this case as well.

When talking about consistency, it is my hangup, when you start relying on metagame dependent variables or precasting.. etc. I don't rag on "precasting" as much in this scenario because it seems like they would know they are going into a one-way deathmatch

 

[Mistwell]

They are GWM martials using primarily a Greatsword with 20 Dexterity so they can use a bow well too if for some reason they can't get to the target.

No they are primary bow users using GWM, with a greatsword if for some reason they find themselves in melee combat. GWM now adds its damage to longbows as well, since it's any heavy weapon now and longbows are a heavy weapon.

 

[ECMO3]

No they are primary bow users using GWM, with a greatsword if for some reason they find themselves in melee combat.

Ok maybe I am remembering wrong, I though Treantmonk said he was priamrily using Greatsword for Graze, but they could use Longbows as well when they were not in melee range.