D&D 5E (2024) Avatar of Bane 2.0. BG 3.5 Themed Game

[Zardnaar]

Well next session the PCs are fighting Baneites and an avatar of Bane. I've previously posted a version before. At level 9 they defeated an Avatar of Myrkul which was a reskinned and tweaked death Knight. AtM its tougher than a Nalfeshnee at CR 13 and I have assigned it a +5 proficiency bonus perhaps as a placeholder.

How I Built It
I took the CR 12 Archpriest, tweaked the spell list and added legendary actions, buffed saves, spell resistance. I want a weaker version than say Myrkul as Bane will have allies vs Solo boss fight. I took some feed back from last version and drastically lowered Banes damage out put. Now he makes 1 attack and casts a spell, rest of it is reactions and legendary. Black fist is a reskinned Archpriest attack (CR 12) and the Closed Fist of Bane is based off a Gortash ability in BG 3. CR 13-17 is roughly the target CR.

Avatar of Bane​

Medium Outsider


ArmorClass 18


Hit Points 325(42d8+96)


Speed30ft.


Str16 (+3) Save +8, Dex12 (+1), Con18 (+4),Save +9Int14 (+2) Save +7, Wis22 (+6),Save +10 Cha14 (+2)


SkillsAthletics+10,Perception +5


Damage Resistance fire, poison, psychic,


Condition Immunities frightened ,paralyzed, stunned,


Senses darkvision 120’, passive perception 19


Languages Common, Abyssal, Infernal


Magic Resistance Bane has advantage on saving throws vs magic



Actions


Bane casts 1 spell and makes 1 black gauntlet attack per roound.

Legendary Resistance (4/day or 5/day in lair). IfBanes avatar fails a saving throw, it can choose to succeed instead


Actions.



Black Gauntlet Melee or Ranged Attack roll +11,reach 5 ft, or range 60'. Hit 27 (4d10+5) necrotic damage​

Bonus Actions

Unholy Word (recharge 5-6) Wisdom Save DC 19, each enemy in a 20- foot emanation originating from Bane. Failure 28 (8d6) necrotic damage and the target has the stunned condition until the end of the Bane's next turn. Success half damage only.


Spellcasting. Bane casts one of the following spells requiring no material components and using wisdom as the spell casting ability (spell saveDC 19)


At will. Light, Thaumaturgy, bane, command (level 1)

1/Day eachFlame strike (level 7 version), dominate persion, hold person (level5 version)


2/day command (level 3),

Reactions

The Closed Fist of Bane In response to damage taken the avatar can manifest a black fist abovea triggering attacks he +11 to hit 12d10 force damage, range 60'.





LegendaryActions Uses 3 (4 in lair)





Theavatar makes 1 black gauntlet attack





InflictTyranny The avatar uses spellcasting to castbane, dominate person or command. The avatar cant take this actionagain until the next turn.





​

 

[Stalker0]

ok lets do a CR sanity check.

Damage: Flame strike is 49 average damage x2 = 98. Then the unholy word is 28 x2 = 56. So based on the 1/day and the 5-6 recharge we will assume one use of each of these in a 3 round standard combat. For now I will ignore the other spells since they don't do damage, and then give them some consideration later.

Round 1: 98 (flame strike) + 56 (unholy word) + 27x5 (black gauntlet + 4 LA black gauntlet) + 66 (closed fist) = 355 damage
Round 2/3: 27x5 + 66 = 201

Overall average: 355 + 201 + 201 / 3 = 252


Then we have 5 legendary resistance + magic resistance + 4 saves profs.

That puts us firmly at: CR24


So based on your desired CR range we are way off target (note I didn't even increase CR for teh numerous conditions here, this is just raw basic damage). Simply put, you still have way way way too much damage here. I would start with a few simple adjustments:

1) Remove the damage from unholy word. The stun is alright great and scary.
2) Remove flame strike. All other bane spells are about control, keep the theme and lower your damage.
3) Remove the closed fist. Its a weird damage spike compared to all of your other attacks and again its just piling on damage you don't need for this CR.
4) Drop the black gauntlet to 19 avg damage

With those changes we are done to: 95 damage per round, and a CR18 (but offensive CR only 15). Considering all of the conditions this guy can also throw in, that seems a lot more reasonable for what you are going for.

 

[dave2008]

ok lets do a CR sanity check.

Damage: Flame strike is 49 average damage x2 = 98. Then the unholy word is 28 x2 = 56. So based on the 1/day and the 5-6 recharge we will assume one use of each of these in a 3 round standard combat. For now I will ignore the other spells since they don't do damage, and then give them some consideration later.

Round 1: 98 (flame strike) + 56 (unholy word) + 27x5 (black gauntlet + 4 LA black gauntlet) + 66 (closed fist) = 355 damage
Round 2/3: 27x5 + 66 = 201

Overall average: 355 + 201 + 201 / 3 = 252


Then we have 5 legendary resistance + magic resistance + 4 saves profs.

That puts us firmly at: CR24


So based on your desired CR range we are way off target (note I didn't even increase CR for teh numerous conditions here, this is just raw basic damage). Simply put, you still have way way way too much damage here. I would start with a few simple adjustments:

1) Remove the damage from unholy word. The stun is alright great and scary.
2) Remove flame strike. All other bane spells are about control, keep the theme and lower your damage.
3) Remove the closed fist. Its a weird damage spike compared to all of your other attacks and again its just piling on damage you don't need for this CR.
4) Drop the black gauntlet to 19 avg damage

With those changes we are done to: 95 damage per round, and a CR18 (but offensive CR only 15). Considering all of the conditions this guy can also throw in, that seems a lot more reasonable for what you are going for.

As a counter point: since we know historically your (@Zardnaar) group destroys 5e monsters, I wouldn't change the damage / CR. Instead, I would give an ability, a reaction maybe, to escape being pinned down.

 

[Stalker0]

As a counter point: since we know historically your (@Zardnaar) group destroys 5e monsters, I wouldn't change the damage / CR. Instead, I would give an ability, a reaction maybe, to escape being pinned down.

If Zard thinks their party can take on a CR24 monster than more power to them, but since the request was a CR13-17, I wanted to highlight this guy is WAY outside of that. If a CR17 is a tough challenge for the group, this guy will wipe the floor with them. (especially looking at that alpha damage, I think you could legit kill lvl 13 players on the first round with that kind of damage)

 

[dave2008]

If Zard thinks their party can take on a CR24 monster than more power to them, but since the request was a CR13-17, I wanted to highlight this guy is WAY outside of that. If a CR17 is a tough challenge for the group, this guy will wipe the floor with them. (especially looking at that alpha damage, I think you could legit kill lvl 13 players on the first round with that kind of damage)

Yes, Zard says that. However, every time he does that his groups curb-stomps the monster. IIRC, I recommend a CR 21+ in the other thread given his group size and level.

 

[Zardnaar]

If Zard thinks their party can take on a CR24 monster than more power to them, but since the request was a CR13-17, I wanted to highlight this guy is WAY outside of that. If a CR17 is a tough challenge for the group, this guy will wipe the floor with them. (especially looking at that alpha damage, I think you could legit kill lvl 13 players on the first round with that kind of damage)

CR 24 new rules is beyond them. They might get CR19 or 20.

They took down CR17 5.5 at 9.

Im running encounters RAW 5.5 xp buckets. Page q12 or 115 iirc DMG.

5 person party sometimes 6. Magic items fairly close to DMG suggestions.

 

[Zardnaar]

ok lets do a CR sanity check.

Damage: Flame strike is 49 average damage x2 = 98. Then the unholy word is 28 x2 = 56. So based on the 1/day and the 5-6 recharge we will assume one use of each of these in a 3 round standard combat. For now I will ignore the other spells since they don't do damage, and then give them some consideration later.

Round 1: 98 (flame strike) + 56 (unholy word) + 27x5 (black gauntlet + 4 LA black gauntlet) + 66 (closed fist) = 355 damage
Round 2/3: 27x5 + 66 = 201

Overall average: 355 + 201 + 201 / 3 = 252


Then we have 5 legendary resistance + magic resistance + 4 saves profs.

That puts us firmly at: CR24


So based on your desired CR range we are way off target (note I didn't even increase CR for teh numerous conditions here, this is just raw basic damage). Simply put, you still have way way way too much damage here. I would start with a few simple adjustments:

1) Remove the damage from unholy word. The stun is alright great and scary.
2) Remove flame strike. All other bane spells are about control, keep the theme and lower your damage.
3) Remove the closed fist. Its a weird damage spike compared to all of your other attacks and again its just piling on damage you don't need for this CR.
4) Drop the black gauntlet to 19 avg damage

With those changes we are done to: 95 damage per round, and a CR18 (but offensive CR only 15). Considering all of the conditions this guy can also throw in, that seems a lot more reasonable for what you are going for.

Are you using old rules?

New monsters are a lot tougher. I used a CR 22 critter and added legendary actions and 1 attack+spell. Old critter had 3 attacks.

Go look at a new CR 24 or 25 critter for comparison.

Sanity check 3 attacks 1d6×4+5d6 damage.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, Zard says that. However, every time he does that his groups curb-stomps the monster. IIRC, I recommend a CR 21+ in the other thread given his group size and level.

Anything with a bad wisdom save if it's lucky will get 1 round of actions.
On Sunday a CR13 nalfeshnee demon got 1 round. If had 3 night bags for support.
High encounter new rules.

If it's humanoid it has to dodge hold person. Non humanoid hold monster or comnand halt. Often as bonus action (glamour bard). Sometimes a cleric always a warlock and dragon sorcerer (who can twin command).

 

[Stalker0]

Are you using old rules?

New monsters are a lot tougher.

CR24 red dragon only does 146 avg damage, and dragons tend to be high damage. Your doing 252 avg damage.

Monster damage baselines at high levels haven't actually changed all that much. The Blog of Holdings monster on a business card is only 6 + 6xCR for average damage (which is 150 at CR 24, pretty close in line with the ancient red).

 

[Zardnaar]

CR24 red dragon only does 146 avg damage, and dragons tend to be high damage. Your doing 252 avg damage.

Monster damage baselines at high levels haven't actually changed all that much. The Blog of Holdings monster on a business card is only 6 + 6xCR for average damage (which is 150 at CR 24, pretty close in line with the ancient red).

Dragons are dealing very little damage for their CR. They're kinda crap.

CR 6 critter have cone of cold

Thus things spells are about CR 12 archpriest. Damage is CR12 base. I added legendary actions and the reaction smite.

CR8s are 1d6+ 5d6 poison+4 with 3 attacks. That's 18d6 sage +12 per round.

CR13s have 8d6 damage+riders as a bonus action and 4d106 damage with 3 attacks oirc.

Do you have the new MM? I'm tweaking those numbers. How much more damage from CR 8 to 13 is acceptable?