What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[zakael19]

Spoiler

The first encounter of Road to Broadhurst does take place in a mostly open field, although the cart you have with you is quite amenable to pushing people into. More than that though the victory condition involves taking out the leader of the group of radenwrights (ratmen) before minions can steal 3 crates of medicine off the cart. Playing keep away is quite useful because minions individually have worse action economy.

Players need to divert attention between keeping minions off the cart and doing the maestro in.

Another thing to watch for is that radenwrights have a malice feature that creates rat walls. I'm likely going to lean into that when I run.

This is a very movement intensive fight. I think it's useful to remember you can trade your main action for a maneuver or a move action - the Director should probably remind players.

The other important element to remember is that these are minions and there is damage carryover so one chunky attack will take out 3-4 minions sometimes.

Suffice it to say I have not seen it at the table yet, but as written it's very important that Directors utilize the victory conditions and noted tactics for each fight and not just fight it out in the middle.

Side tangent: One of things you can do with knockback specifically that is not immediately intuitive is use it to send your allies where they need to be. Knockback targets creatures, not enemies and you can always stop forced movement short if need be.

I was telling the group tonight as we were talking through games to try how impressed I was that DS! very quickly shows that there’s win conditions other then “kill em all.” You very quickly get things like "use a maneuver to determine the magic thing is causing the problem, and you can deal with it instead" or even "once outnumbered 2:1 they flee (encounter ends)," or "focus the obvious leader and the rest surrender/flee" or "escort NPCs off the map."

 

[Zetesofos]

Yep. Part of my lack of enthusiasm is due to my past 4e experience. I don't have a group motivated to learn tactical play. Honestly, I don't know if I even have the mental focus to do it.
I have to say that the presentation of 4e's rules seemed better and more streamlined than Draw Steel.

So, Its hard to say exactly where this misconception comes from; but from my experience - being a tactical game doesn't mean that you need to be 'good' at tactics to play it. I would say instead that the nature of the games design helps players who otherwise NOT good thinking in those terms FEEL like they are tactical - just by simply using the abilities.

You can certainly go many steps ahead if you're a super gamer - but the game works well in helping people who simply attempt to play it do cool things and FEEL like they are being tactical with not a lot of effort.

 

[Zetesofos]

As someone who doesn’t love lots of ‘war room’ conversations during battle, this is worrying to me. And I’ve heard it said now several times from various sources that there’s plenty of strategizing with the rest of the players about best course of action during a fight.

The question there in is "Do you not like those discussions because a) you don't have a good relationship with your players b) there are too many options to consider (decision paralysis) or c) the options don't feel exciting to discuss?

 

[Enrahim]

The question there in is "Do you not like those discussions because a) you don't have a good relationship with your players b) there are too many options to consider (decision paralysis) or c) the options don't feel exciting to discuss?

I am not Elvish Lore, but I like to limit "war room" conversations as well. The reason is that it brings attemtion away from the cinematic action at the moment, and into a more meta analytical state. A bit as if you were watching an action movie at home, and your friends pushed pause every 5 second during the action sequences discussing in detail the choreography.

This kind of movie night might be great fun for some, but certanly not for all, no matter how interesting the choreography might be. That said I think draw steel with its very streamlined core mechanics lends itself well to the no-war room style of play. And the complexity seem to work well for war room debates as well.

I guess it boils down to the players needing to agree if they want to play long-form chess or blitz. Same game, very different experiences.

 

[zakael19]

I am not Elvish Lore, but I like to limit "war room" conversations as well. The reason is that it brings attemtion away from the cinematic action at the moment, and into a more meta analytical state. A bit as if you were watching an action movie at home, and your friends pushed pause every 5 second during the action sequences discussing in detail the choreography.

This kind of movie night might be great fun for some, but certanly not for all, no matter how interesting the choreography might be. That said I think draw steel with its very streamlined core mechanics lends itself well to the no-war room style of play. And the complexity seem to work well for war room debates as well.

I guess it boils down to the players needing to agree if they want to play long-form chess or blitz. Same game, very different experiences.

Because it’s side based I-Go-You-Go combat, there’s going to be at least a little bit of back and forth and plenty of examples of that being intentional in the book. It wants you to do quick coordination and teamwork that’s aware of mechanics, and then translate that back into the fiction to be cinematic (and the abilities help with that).

 

[Retreater]

So, Its hard to say exactly where this misconception comes from; but from my experience - being a tactical game doesn't mean that you need to be 'good' at tactics to play it. I would say instead that the nature of the games design helps players who otherwise NOT good thinking in those terms FEEL like they are tactical - just by simply using the abilities.

You can certainly go many steps ahead if you're a super gamer - but the game works well in helping people who simply attempt to play it do cool things and FEEL like they are being tactical with not a lot of effort.

However, being motivated to learn how to use your character is important so that these very involved combats don't screech to a halt.

"What's a minor action?"
"Can I use a reaction on my turn instead of a regular action?"
"What do I add to my attack roll?"
"What is a cone shaped like?"
"When can I spend a Healing Surge?"
"Can I use that Daily power again?"

These are the types of questions what were still being asked on almost every turn - 6 months into our 4E campaign.
It's not just about being a tactical mastermind, it's also about caring enough about the game to put effort in to learn your character and the rules so you're not delaying everyone else's turns and helping to extend a turn to 45 minutes.

 

[Staffan]

Spoiler

The first encounter of Road to Broadhurst does take place in a mostly open field, although the cart you have with you is quite amenable to pushing people into. More than that though the victory condition involves taking out the leader of the group of radenwrights (ratmen) before minions can steal 3 crates of medicine off the cart. Playing keep away is quite useful because minions individually have worse action economy.

Spoiler

The text isn't incredibly clear about it, but there's definitely something that looks like a wall or possibly a low cliff along the left side of the road, and something that looks like a hedge or a shrubbery (Ni!) along the right side.

 

[ffanxii4ever]

However, being motivated to learn how to use your character is important so that these very involved combats don't screech to a halt.

"What's a minor action?"
"Can I use a reaction on my turn instead of a regular action?"
"What do I add to my attack roll?"
"What is a cone shaped like?"
"When can I spend a Healing Surge?"
"Can I use that Daily power again?"

These are the types of questions what were still being asked on almost every turn - 6 months into our 4E campaign.
It's not just about being a tactical mastermind, it's also about caring enough about the game to put effort in to learn your character and the rules so you're not delaying everyone else's turns and helping to extend a turn to 45 minutes.

Sure, but that's more of a table culture thing more than something that can be fixed with game mechanics. It doesn't matter how simple or complex the game or character build is, if a player has no desire to learn the basics of the game and the system, they won't.

 

[Retreater]

Sure, but that's more of a table culture thing more than something that can be fixed with game mechanics. It doesn't matter how simple or complex the game or character build is, if a player has no desire to learn the basics of the game and the system, they won't.

True, but there are systems that can be learned in 30 minutes. There are also systems that require months of practice and research to do thoroughly.
For me, I'm just not going to take the effort of complex systems anymore. Ultimately, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

 

[SteveC]

However, being motivated to learn how to use your character is important so that these very involved combats don't screech to a halt.

What you're saying is so true! I've written about this before, but a player in one of my games just doesn't seem to take the time to learn the rules. He's a great guy but it's such a challenge to get his character going. The group played 13th Age before I came into it, but he played a simple character class there and did okay. And we played Feng Shui and he rocked it.

I think designers should consider this in their games, or at least admit that the game may not be for this kind of player if they don't.