What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

Not really relevant or useful to the discussion but the questions about what "modern" actually means reminded me that archaeologists measure the age of objects (especially through carbon dating) as years Before Present (BP) with the "present" being the 1st of January 1950. Meaning the entirety of RPG's existence is technically in the future.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

I lot of what you see in 5E:

*Everyone of all classes and races having flashy cool magic abilities every couple of levels that they can do often, if not all the time.

*Endless easy resting, with reset buttons

*Easy, almost automatic checks and saves, where the DC is low and the PC gets a lot of pluses to the roll or something like Advantage.

*lots of hit points

*Death Saving Throws, where the character has a low chance of dying for real

*Few lingering effects, mostly for spells...."this spell does x until the next turn then is gone"

*Boundless Accuracy

*No keeping track of resources. Like the classic "your archer has infinite arrows " with a vague "oh, um, every so often roll a d6 and if you roll a 1 your arrows kinda sorta start to run out"
You are describing one game that has little in the way of modern design because of D&D tradition. And even then, your description of the game is biased and unfair because you constantly make assumptions that players just want to skip through adventures with zero challenge.

I feel, as many have mentioned, that modern design is intentional. The decisions in games like Drawsteel, Daggerheart, Shadowdark, Mothership, Into the Odd, etc. are carefully thought out, and the designers are willing to throw out beloved ideas if they don't fit the game's intention. His Majesty the Worm, for example is a deliberate desire to redo dungeon crawling. It's tight, strategic, old schoolish, without any mechanical trappings from D&D. Draw Steel states its elevator pitch clearly and closely hews to its purpose.

With well designed modern games, players are far less likely to feel let down by unkept promises. More games these days deliver what they're selling,which is why I have been buying more games than I'll ever actually get to run.
 

I feel, as many have mentioned, that modern design is intentional. The decisions in games like Drawsteel, Daggerheart, Shadowdark, Mothership, Into the Odd, etc. are carefully thought out,
I do not believe that intentional design or careful thought is a new thing. Surely games like Runequest, Pendragon, Ghostbusters, Amber, Paranoia and Ars Magica are games designed with clear intent to support particular styles of play and were developed with careful thought by the designers.

Whether they are games you want to play, or designed to do the things you want, the ways you want, is another question. But I don't understand how anyone can suggest that the designers involved lacked an ability or willingness to use careful thought or to design with intent.

and the designers are willing to throw out beloved ideas if they don't fit the game's intention. His Majesty the Worm, for example is a deliberate desire to redo dungeon crawling. It's tight, strategic, old schoolish, without any mechanical trappings from D&D. Draw Steel states its elevator pitch clearly and closely hews to its purpose.
I'm not sure how this observation can even be applied to most games. Unless you're making a new edition or variant of an existing game, what non-fitting, beloved ideas are people generally keeping? Traveller, Runequest and Rolemaster are early games with a clear willingness to ditch D&D assumptions. RM specifically is an attempt to offer D&D while ditching and replacing basically every single mechanic and many fundamental underlying assumptions.. The history of the hobby is littered with attempts to remake D&D and, prior to the d20 boom, these games didn't typically retain much of anything of the original D&D mechanics and they did not tend to retain the so-called sacred cows that linger in the official line. Their selling point was, in general, the fact they were ditching such things.

Which, now that my thoughts are moving in this direction, makes me wonder -- are people's opinions on this subject being influenced by the glut of d20 and OSR products we have seen in the last 20-ish years, and perhaps even things like PbtA and FitD game families, and completely missing the fact that, once upon a time, every game was pretty much it's own thing?

These days, many new games are hacks and mods to existing, successful games. Once upon a time, this was not remotely the case. I would suggest that maybe what we're seeing is things coming full circle in some respects, except that people are accepting hacks of some games into the "modern" umbrella, so it's not just a matter of modern being a game that differentiates itself from others in some way.

With well designed modern games, players are far less likely to feel let down by unkept promises.
It is equally true that with well-designed, older games, players are far less likely to feel let down by unkept promises. A well-designed game is a well-designed game, and a modern, well-designed game is not inherently better than other games by virtue of "modern" being appended to the description.

More games these days deliver what they're selling,which is why I have been buying more games than I'll ever actually get to run.
That's easy to assert, but I'm not sure there is any way show this is actually the case, as it sounds like a question of taste and perspective, to me.

I mean, it is probably true in general that "more games these days" do [anything you wish to state] simply because there are more games. But suggesting that more games, as a significant fraction of the total number, deliver what they're selling ... that seems highly unlikely to me, given the insanely low bar we have and the glut of products out there.

Edit: In summary, I reject any definition of "modern" games that attempts to claim modern games are somehow better designed, as opposed to differently designed, than games that fall outside whatever definition is being used.
 
Last edited:

I actually do consider there to have been an approximate time boundary when what I'd call modern RPG design coalesced from a collection of ideas that you can find some of in earlier RPGs to the design of actual games that were popular by RPG standards rather than basically belonged to a message board or couple of Google Groups (RIP).

That year was 2010 and the games in question were the obvious pick of Apocalypse World and the now almost forgotten Cortex Plus games of Leverage, Smallville, and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. And they had most of what I consider the hallmarks of modern games:
  • Tight thematic rules focused on a genre
  • Success with consequences mechanics
  • Risk/reward options to emphasise character
  • Mechanics to emphasise the relationships between PCs
  • A focus on either serial adventures or short campaigns
  • Limited clear and evocative abilities, strongly written
  • Character sheets that either fit on an index card or a double sided sheet with almost all options included
  • Abstract timing mechanics
  • Minimal maths, all adding or comparing
For the record Blades in the Dark is mostly a hybrid of Apocalypse World and Leverage. The Cortex Plus games have disappeared as MWP lost the licences so they became impossible to get legally.
 

I actually do consider there to have been an approximate time boundary when what I'd call modern RPG design coalesced from a collection of ideas that you can find some of in earlier RPGs to the design of actual games that were popular by RPG standards rather than basically belonged to a message board or couple of Google Groups (RIP).

That year was 2010 and the games in question were the obvious pick of Apocalypse World and the now almost forgotten Cortex Plus games of Leverage, Smallville, and Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. And they had most of what I consider the hallmarks of modern games:
  • Tight thematic rules focused on a genre
  • Success with consequences mechanics
  • Risk/reward options to emphasise character
  • Mechanics to emphasise the relationships between PCs
  • A focus on either serial adventures or short campaigns
  • Limited clear and evocative abilities, strongly written
  • Character sheets that either fit on an index card or a double sided sheet with almost all options included
  • Abstract timing mechanics
  • Minimal maths, all adding or comparing
For the record Blades in the Dark is mostly a hybrid of Apocalypse World and Leverage. The Cortex Plus games have disappeared as MWP lost the licences so they became impossible to get legally.
So are you dismissing earlier, influential works that came out of the same fertile ground like Sorceror? Are you basing "modern design" on how well known the games are now?
 

So are you dismissing earlier, influential works that came out of the same fertile ground like Sorceror? Are you basing "modern design" on how well known the games are now?
Re read the first sentence. I'm not dismissing games like My Life With Master, Fate, or Unisystem as unimportant. I'm saying that that 2010 was when the ideas that people were working on with games like Polaris and Dogs in the Vineyard actually coalesced although most predate that.
 

What I think of as Modern are mechanics that are refined and put up front in ways they never were before, or used to a higher degree than ever.

Certainly this is "Success with Complications" I can't recall a single game using this before PBTA, and if it did, it did it poorly. The idea of almost never failing rolls, but instead succeeding or succeeding with complications was never a thing that was embraced as a core main mechanic in any mainstream game I can think of. D&D = pass fail, GURPS = pass fail. World of Darkness = Pass fail. So so so many games were pass fail.

But more so than that "Telling the GM 'no, you can't judge it that way'" = this is very new school thinking. Moving away from "Ruling" and "GM fiat" towards "the mechanics say what happens, and you narrate it into the scene." is what I would consider very modern design principle.

then there is meta currency that is allowed to be used for plot or scene. We did have systems for spending points to get more bonuses and such. But its a very modern concept for games to say "spend a point and you can add a NPC or item or event to the scene" ... the whole idea of players, not the GM, adding truths to the scene is very modern design.
 

What I think of as Modern are mechanics that are refined and put up front in ways they never were before, or used to a higher degree than ever.

Certainly this is "Success with Complications" I can't recall a single game using this before PBTA, and if it did, it did it poorly. The idea of almost never failing rolls, but instead succeeding or succeeding with complications was never a thing that was embraced as a core main mechanic in any mainstream game I can think of. D&D = pass fail, GURPS = pass fail. World of Darkness = Pass fail. So so so many games were pass fail.
There are a few - but yes this is a big one.
But more so than that "Telling the GM 'no, you can't judge it that way'" = this is very new school thinking. Moving away from "Ruling" and "GM fiat" towards "the mechanics say what happens, and you narrate it into the scene." is what I would consider very modern design principle.
And I'd consider much more a trad thing tbh. Modern games very rarely have rules lawyers and what is rules lawyering but telling the GM how things work? It's 3.X where this was at its peak.
then there is meta currency that is allowed to be used for plot or scene. We did have systems for spending points to get more bonuses and such. But its a very modern concept for games to say "spend a point and you can add a NPC or item or event to the scene" ... the whole idea of players, not the GM, adding truths to the scene is very modern design.
I don't think as many modern games do this as you think (PbtA games generally don't have meta currencies) and I know I've seen players add expected NPCs to the scene in WoD and GURPS games in the 1990s and 2000s. Meanwhile Fate lost a lot of momentum to PbtA games.
 

I'm very much getting the impression that "modern" actually means, "recent games that emphasise mechanics that can trace a clear lineage back to the Forge."

To take the previous post as an example:

Certainly this is "Success with Complications" I can't recall a single game using this before PBTA, and if it did, it did it poorly.
So, PbtA, which is post-Forge, but by one of the pre-eminent Forge contributors.

But more so than that "Telling the GM 'no, you can't judge it that way'" = this is very new school thinking. Moving away from "Ruling" and "GM fiat" towards "the mechanics say what happens, and you narrate it into the scene." is what I would consider very modern design principle.
Burning Wheel (2002)

the whole idea of players, not the GM, adding truths to the scene is very modern design.
Inspectres (2002)



I think similar comparisons/origins can be made to a substantial majority of the definitions/requirements mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
 


Remove ads

Top