D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Zardnaar]

I disagree. Not within the whole system.

Yours too.

Then you did not play 3.5 with people who really expoited the system. Happy for you.

Ok.

Probably. Didn't play with casuals back then.

Maybe. Maybe if I DM'd it today, I would enforce a bjt lower numbers in general. Maybe have the same standard array as we use in 5e. And don't scale enemy AC and be much more tight with magic items.

Agreed.

Not on the player side though.

No. It is not. Because you do nkt use fireball against equal level foes. But against numbers of CR < 1 foes. How often do I need to repeat that?

Agreed.

At level 10+
But again, that is meaningless. As I did not even suggest upcasting it at that level...
No one wver suggested, that at level 10, fireball was ok again. This is why wizards in 3e were way mkre powerful than fighters. Because they scaled quadratic.

Comparing the more linear wizard against the quadratic wizard is not fair anyway. The whole idea of 5e's spell system is bringing wizatds down to sane levels.

...

Correct. Orcs in 5e are toughs now. In 3e and before, they were just bigger goblins...
That has more to do with the orc's evolution and depicture in other media than fireball becoming weaker.
Hobgoblins still die to an average fireball. And hobgoblins in 3.5 even had one more hp than orcs...

Yes. See above.

And actually, your 2x hp is actually not true btw.

Lets take the troll:

63 in 3.5 vs 84 in 5.14. That is just 1/3 more hp. And regeneration in 3.5 is harder to stop, as only the fire damage itself can't be regenerated.

In 5.24 it is 95 hp. That is 50% higher than 3.5. Even 8d6 is more than 50% higher than 5d6.

The werebear actually now in 5.24 has more than double hp. But they don't have resistance 10/silver.
But here I say, 10 silver was just there to annoy fighters. Wizards were too good against them. But yes, point for you.

Air elemental: 60 hp (3.5) vs 90 hp (5.24)

Just 50% increase. Point for me. Even when not considering flyby attack and combat reflexes for the 3.5 one.

But again. I do not recommend using fireball against single high CR enemies.

But yeah. I guess you will ignore that part once again...

Well we agre on the big things.

Even at 50% more HP that brings 8d6 5E FB down to 5.something D6.

The gap narrows at higher CR. BUT..... thats the worst case scenario for a 3.5 mage eg minimum caster level no metamagic.

Once you hit level 6 proportionally 3.5s back in the lead. I've seen 3.X adventures with 80 orcs or whatever level10ish.

So if 6E has 5E levels of hp, 3.5 levels or in the middle would it be broken if damage spells auto scale again? Assume martial damage is high a'la 5.5.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well we agre on the big things.

Even at 50% more HP that brings 8d6 5E FB down to 5.something D6.

The gap narrows at higher CR. BUT..... thats the worst case scenario for a 3.5 mage eg minimum caster level no metamagic.

Once you hit level 6 proportionally 3.5s back in the lead. I've seen 3.X adventures with 80 orcs or whatever level10ish.

But they pose no threat at all.

Just look at their +4 to hit vs a +13 to hit for the CR 5 werebear.

5e orcs (5.14 due to the lack of 5.24 orcs) attack with +5 to hit vs a +7 to hit for the 5.24 werebear.
5e Orcs are still a threat at level 5.

So if 6E has 5E levels of hp, 3.5 levels or in the middle would it be broken if damage spells auto scale again? Assume martial damage is high a'la 5.5.

I don't eant to see auto scaling spells again, as long as wizards get that much spells per day. I could see slower auto scaling though.

 

[Zardnaar]

But they pose no threat at all.

Just look at their +4 to hit vs a +13 to hit for the CR 5 werebear.

5e orcs (5.14 due to the lack of 5.24 orcs) attack with +5 to hit vs a +7 to hit for the 5.24 werebear.
5e Orcs are still a threat at level 5.

I don't eant to see auto scaling spells again, as long as wizards get that much spells per day. I could see slower auto scaling though.

Scaling at same rate as cantrips?

 

[James Gasik]

If spells automatically scaled, Wizards would use their 1st level slots for more than shield.

 

[Zardnaar]

If spells automatically scaled, Wizards would use their 1st level slots for more than shield.

You forgot absorb elements and silvery barbs.

Shield is why I dont use spell points in 5E. Highest level spell slot+shield spam.

 

[James Gasik]

You forgot absorb elements and silvery varbs.

No real difference. If you got increasing effect out of magic missile or burning hands as you increased in level, they'd continue to be viable options and there'd be competition for those slots as opposed to the spells I keep hearing DM's gripe about.

 

[Zardnaar]

No real difference. If you got increasing effect out of magic missile or burning hands as you increased in level, they'd continue to be viable options and there'd be competition for those slots as opposed to the spells I keep hearing DM's gripe about.

Yeah im not opposed to auto scaling damage spells. They haven't been an issue for 25 years.

 

[ECMO3]

The problem with low level troops in 3.5E is bounded accuracy and damage resistance. Creatures that were much lower level were no threat at all.

It is one of the things I hated about 3.5E.

 

[cbwjm]

One thing I thought about ages ago but never implemented was having spell slots level up. Meaning at a certain level, all of your 1st-level spell slots become 2nd level spell slots and some level after that, they become 3rd-level spell slots so that at caster level 11 (as an example) you might have 10 3rd level spell slots. It would mean that casters like eldritch knights or paladins would generally only convert 1st-level to 2nd-level spell slots unless they multiclassed with a full caster to boost their overall spellpower.

Another option I looked at was that the spell slots stayed the same level (so you don't end up with 10 3rd-level spell slots) but you automagically cast your low-level spells as if they were cast with higher level slots, keeping in line with cantrip damage increases. Each time you gained an increase in cantrip power you'd gain an increase in "effective spell slot" but only for your lower level spells. At character level 5 you would increase the power of your 1st-level spell slots to 2nd-level, at character level 11 you would increase the power of your 1st-level and 2nd-level spell slots to effectively be 3rd-level spell slots, and finally at character level 17, you would increase the power of your 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spell slot to effectively be 4th-level.

Probably unbalanced but I'd like to try these methods out.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Scaling at same rate as cantrips?

Wouldn't be the worst idea.

That solves the problem that at some point cantrips outdamage low level spells.
Maybe I try that as a house rule.

So level 1 and 2 damage spells add one damage die at level 5, 11 and 17, level 3 to level 5 spells at level 11 and 17 and level 6 to level 8 spells at level 17.

And when we are at it, I'd give sneak attack the same progression.

This is not much, but maybe helps a bit.

I also find it satisfying that at some point a standard fireball does 10d6 damage.