What makes setting lore "actually matter" to the players?

[Cergorach]

I never understood the appeal. These are supposed to be games that you play, not passive media that you passively watch like books or movies, not religions you must obey or be punished. If the information isn’t relevant to PCs and will never come up in play, then it’s just irrelevant self-aggrandizing microfiction. This doesn’t belong in a game, it belongs in a comic book. Those publishers should leave the ttrpg hobby and go into comic books, where they belong. Open up market space for new publishers to write actually player-focused content.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist. WoD as a game was played by MANY, it was very popular in it's day. While the nWoD, which you do like, was significantly less popular. This isn't a contest, but it indicates that your tastes are FAR from universal. I don't like nWoD, because it tried to reinvent the wheel, by imho making it more bland.

The problem with WoD was that they made a metaplot and they exploited that to the fullest, then they ended it and thought that they could sell us the 'same' thing again, that didn't work. The reality was that WoD and nWoD had their own fan niche, with a little overlap.

And that WoD stayed popular was shown with Onyx Path and the V20 (etc.) line of books, just as nWoD stayed popular enough with Onyx Path also publishing books for that. And now with V5 (and essentially WoD5), the current IP owners are trying to continue the most popular line, in another new coat of paint.

And how do you play in such a metaplot heavy game? You are either part of the story or you go the 'what if' route. Think of it as Star Wars the RPG in the pre Disney days. If you wanted to play in the rebellion era, chances are that you would play in a campaign where the players steal the plans for the Death Star... Then Disney plugged that hole with Rogue One. The issue with something like SW is that it's a story people made an RPG about, the IP holders want to plug the holes with movies, tv series, computer games, and anything else that gets them more big bucks (something RPGs don't really do). Something like WoD or Shadowrun leave enough gaps to play in. And even in SW there are gaps to play in, just less and less. RPing in the Marvel and DC universes must be pretty darned difficult though...

Is that something I want to play in each and every day, no. But I do occasionally want to play in that. I find it interesting. Just as with D&D I occasionally want to play in a dungeon crawler, but certainly not each and every campaign.

Player focused content is what we had with D&D 3e, oodles and oodles of books of races, feats, spells, prestige classes, etc. And everyone expected to use it all in every game, that sounds like fun, it is until it isn't and you spend more time on prep than the players play (combined: Session length x players) because you're trying to herd a clowder of cats with all those options interacting in extremely unpredictable ways making encounters extremely skewed (either far too hard or far to easy) and not fun for anyone involved.

I'll reiterate, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad or shouldn't exist. It just means you don't like it, which is a perfectly fine opinion to have.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Agree to disagree. I think that’s a completely valid motivation. Paizo did it and to great success. I think grognards should do that instead of complaining and bullying. I never had an issue with WoD lore before its fans bullied me into hating it. If they had left to live in their walled garden, then I wouldn’t’ve cared.

Either you missed my point entirely or you are disagreeing on a point that is not well founded.
Anyone who runs to the internet to complain about the the lore changes is not doing anyone a service. They are doing a bad thing.
Demanding a company never update its lore, or change only tiny bits of its lore is an example of self entitlement. It does not matter how much a fan is a fan. You get no say in George R. R. Martin's stories. You get no say in Star Wars. You get no say in Nephilim. You get no say in Vampire.

These are not yours.

It's ok to miss old parts of lore, but its not ok to rant about changes, especially when a new edition is needed.

For your personal games, sure. Otherwise, it’s a form of cancelation that kills the community. All of my favorite games have been canceled, the communities dried up, and there’s no one to discuss it with. It’s disheartening.

I will sat it again.
These are not yours.
It does not matter how much your love Vampire or Star Wars. Ranting about changes to lore hurts so much more, and it helps none. Don't do it.

Help others find what you love about the game, cherish that, stick to that. Make it your your table's truth.

Stop forcing the world to adhere to what your favorites are.

I’m gonna provide a personal example. I like the canceled 90s game Nephilim. It’s the only game that made me like lore because you play immortals who were personally involved in the lore. It has this elaborate structure of Major Arcana tribes that provides culture for the immortals. Each differs wildly from the next. They’re tied into the historical figure Akhenaton, making an otherwise forgettable historical footnote into a huge occult flashpoint. The game is unfinished so I had to frankenstein stuff together using unpublished material, conversions from the French, and my own interpolation of what I think Chaosium would’ve made had they been better prepared. That includes ditching the thetan angle in favor of making the Nephilim into basically Avatar: The Last Airbender. But I digress.

I will sat it again.
These are not yours.

You do not get to say what Chaosium or Paradox or whoever should be doing. Your scope of market, competency, lore, ideas, player games, etc = is too small to even matter againt the weight of the world and the hopeful thousands who will play whatever comes next.

By this lore policing, it just hurts everyone. I would tell whoever does it to refrain from that entirely.

.. If I tell them “hey I like this completely different thing I made with the same name, are you interested in talking about it?” then at best I’m gonna get weird looks.

So instead of being grateful that you got a chance to get some amount of input into a new, which very few people get a chance to do - you would sabotage it all and become the grognard that refuses anything just because YOUR idea was not chosen?

No. That is bad. Don't do that.

Take the gift horse, have some hope, be positive and offer your ideas knowing - that like everyone in a creative process - some will hit the editing room floor.

We should all respect how hard it is to create a game lore. And ranting about changes is the worst thing you can do.


Embrace change. The more positive you embrace it, the easier it is to get your ideas incorporated.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Either you missed my point entirely or you are disagreeing on a point that is not well founded.
Anyone who runs to the internet to complain about the the lore changes is not doing anyone a service. They are doing a bad thing.
Demanding a company never update its lore, or change only tiny bits of its lore is an example of self entitlement. It does not matter how much a fan is a fan. You get no say in George R. R. Martin's stories. You get no say in Star Wars. You get no say in Nephilim. You get no say in Vampire.

These are not yours.

It's ok to miss old parts of lore, but its not ok to rant about changes, especially when a new edition is needed.




I will sat it again.
These are not yours.
It does not matter how much your love Vampire or Star Wars. Ranting about changes to lore hurts so much more, and it helps none. Don't do it.

Help others find what you love about the game, cherish that, stick to that. Make it your your table's truth.

Stop forcing the world to adhere to what your favorites are.



I will sat it again.
These are not yours.

You do not get to say what Chaosium or Paradox or whoever should be doing. Your scope of market, competency, lore, ideas, player games, etc = is too small to even matter againt the weight of the world and the hopeful thousands who will play whatever comes next.

By this lore policing, it just hurts everyone. I would tell whoever does it to refrain from that entirely.



So instead of being grateful that you got a chance to get some amount of input into a new, which very few people get a chance to do - you would sabotage it all and become the grognard that refuses anything just because YOUR idea was not chosen?

No. That is bad. Don't do that.

Take the gift horse, have some hope, be positive and offer your ideas knowing - that like everyone in a creative process - some will hit the editing room floor.

We should all respect how hard it is to create a game lore. And ranting about changes is the worst thing you can do.


Embrace change. The more positive you embrace it, the easier it is to get your ideas incorporated.

So it's ok to not like lore changes, but it's not ok to tell anyone about it in an environment where someone who disagrees might hear you?

 

[soviet]

Either you missed my point entirely or you are disagreeing on a point that is not well founded.
Anyone who runs to the internet to complain about the the lore changes is not doing anyone a service. They are doing a bad thing.
Demanding a company never update its lore, or change only tiny bits of its lore is an example of self entitlement. It does not matter how much a fan is a fan. You get no say in George R. R. Martin's stories. You get no say in Star Wars. You get no say in Nephilim. You get no say in Vampire.

These are not yours.

It's ok to miss old parts of lore, but its not ok to rant about changes, especially when a new edition is needed.




I will sat it again.
These are not yours.
It does not matter how much your love Vampire or Star Wars. Ranting about changes to lore hurts so much more, and it helps none. Don't do it.

Help others find what you love about the game, cherish that, stick to that. Make it your your table's truth.

Stop forcing the world to adhere to what your favorites are.



I will sat it again.
These are not yours.

You do not get to say what Chaosium or Paradox or whoever should be doing. Your scope of market, competency, lore, ideas, player games, etc = is too small to even matter againt the weight of the world and the hopeful thousands who will play whatever comes next.

By this lore policing, it just hurts everyone. I would tell whoever does it to refrain from that entirely.



So instead of being grateful that you got a chance to get some amount of input into a new, which very few people get a chance to do - you would sabotage it all and become the grognard that refuses anything just because YOUR idea was not chosen?

No. That is bad. Don't do that.

Take the gift horse, have some hope, be positive and offer your ideas knowing - that like everyone in a creative process - some will hit the editing room floor.

We should all respect how hard it is to create a game lore. And ranting about changes is the worst thing you can do.


Embrace change. The more positive you embrace it, the easier it is to get your ideas incorporated.

Absolutely not. Discussion forums are for discussions (well, arguments).

If someone else acquires an IP and releases an inferior version of it (Star Wars, WotC D&D, Vampire) I have no obligation to be grateful and keep my criticisms to myself. What a ludicrous position.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And how do you play in such a metaplot heavy game?

This is where we run into something I'm pretty sure that WoD did that is more clearly seen with Paizo's adventure paths. I do not believe that the audience consuming WoD metaplot were playing them all any more than I believe that the subscribers to Paizo's APs are running or playing them all. You can't play all Paizo's APs, with IIRC a new module every month. Instead what they have done is some sort of "ideal homes" magazines which allow players who aren't running them to imagine they are. (And from this perspective all the lore that never sees play and makes them a pain to run makes perfect sense).

 

[zarionofarabel]

So it's ok to not like lore changes, but it's not ok to tell anyone about it in an environment where someone who disagrees might hear you?

On the internet!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[zakael19]

Speaking of lore "actually mattering," I had an end-of-session wish from a player last Tuesday which was then echoed by the whole group that they want to really dig into the sociological implications of a "hidden" fairy/magical/etc community within the urban landscape more that's the core of the setting I wrote up.

So I guess I'd better work with them to figure that out!

 

[RenleyRenfield]

So it's ok to not like lore changes, but it's not ok to tell anyone about it in an environment where someone who disagrees might hear you?

I never said where someone disagrees. I think you need to read my posts again.

There is a difference in saying "i like X better than Y." Go for it, all day. People can commiserate. They can expound on what they too like.

Rather than "ranting" and saying "i hate change X". This doesn't facilitate anything. It's just a person ranting. Good for them, who cares.

If a person really wanted to get the ear of a publisher it will never be by ranting.

See the difference?

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Absolutely not. Discussion forums are for discussions (well, arguments).

If someone else acquires an IP and releases an inferior version of it (Star Wars, WotC D&D, Vampire) I have no obligation to be grateful and keep my criticisms to myself. What a ludicrous position.

The problem here is why gets to decide what is inferior?
Some people don't like episode 1. Some do.
Ranting creates arguments. It never convinces anyone'.
So yeah, I am suggesting "do better". Don't rant. Didn't hate.

It's not your art, it's not your creation. So who cares what you hate?

Better to share what you like. That way everyone wants to hear what you say.

Better to support changes, it brings up opportunity for your new ideas too.

I'd rather hear what you like about any given edition of star wars, vampire, or Forgotten realms. That is helpful, that I can build with. And if i am a WotC designer, that i can better incorporate in the next edition. Like for real @soviet what do you like about them?

 

[RenleyRenfield]

This is where we run into something I'm pretty sure that WoD did that is more clearly seen with Paizo's adventure paths. I do not believe that the audience consuming WoD metaplot were playing them all any more than I believe that the subscribers to Paizo's APs are running or playing them all. You can't play all Paizo's APs, with IIRC a new module every month. Instead what they have done is some sort of "ideal homes" magazines which allow players who aren't running them to imagine they are. (And from this perspective all the lore that never sees play and makes them a pain to run makes perfect sense).

Part of this is what I am conveying here.

By making lore less hard-line adherence
By making lore less locked-in to past editions
= We get more room for your interpretation. And nowhere is this more useful than trrpg

Have lore
Change lore

Don't get so precious on lore.