D&D 5E (2024) Changes to the Command spell and its use at the table.

[UngeheuerLich]

Only things that are consistent with "move away ... by the fastest means available" - this means move away and there is no room to interpret that as "NOT move away" or "move away less" or at "move away at a slower pace".

Move is not jumping. If you argue with rules, use rules.
Movespeeds allow you to move. You have to use your fastest.

Whatever method you can move away that is the fastest is what you do, anything else is up to intepretation.

Yes. I use my fastest movespeed. Fly if I can. Walk if I can't.

Your perception is irrelevant, it is magic. As a matter of fact if you are in a hallway with an illusionary brick wall behind you, that you think is a real brick wall, and a dead end you still must go through it because that is the fastest means to move away and the magic therefore would compel you to go through it even though you do not know it is there.

If you are in what appears to be an open field but have an invisible wall of force behind you, that you don't know is there, but it is possible to go around it, then you MUST go around it because you can and the magic would make you do this. What you absolutely can't do is use 5 feet of movement and run into the wall and then say "Oh well I don't know where to go so I am done."

You don't go around an invisible wall of force. Otherwise I will game your game and command my allies to find secret doors.

The only thing the magic can't compel you to do is things that are not physically possible, like for example go through a stone wall, or move when you are grappled or paralyzed.

Of course.

Why? Intelligence, perception and choice has nothing to do with it.

Intelligence has nothing to do with perception anyway.

You can be a completely unthinking plant or a construct and you would still do what the spell said to do.

Yes. I really dislike this change. Although I think most plants won't unroot themself.
But I think they can perfectly follow the command: "halt".

Well houseruling is fine, but that is not RAW or in this case RAI.

Did I say so? I don't think so.
But thanks for the reminder. I thinj I write that down so I remember next time.

I hope you would get this agreement in session 0 and not when I cast command to get your boss to run off the cliff.

And hopefully not when the bos commands you to jump down the cliff.

I think it was me who commanded the cleric to approach the enemy and had to jump down a few feet. And I think I allowed a second save. It was a few points of damage and it was technically possible to actually arrive at the boss.
I would not have forced the cleric to jump down and die.

Also in terms of moving through walls, off of cliffs etc, I will note this is no more powerful than the Push weapon mastery which is available to lots of classes at 1st level and is at will.

It is more powerful. Because theoretically every cliff less than 60ft away is dangerous.

For approach it has to be a certain setup. Flee won't let anyone jump to their peril if there is any other sane route at least.

But as I said. Play as you like. I hope you have fun.

Please note my google search of the word "flee" a few posts above.

It encompasses the words "escape from danger".

 

[Clint_L]

Oh, are we parsing every word? What if we hold "spends its turn moving" to the same literal standard? That would rule out any movement that cannot occupy the entire turn. Otherwise, it hasn't "spent its turn moving." Dying, obviously, would prevent it spending its turn moving. Or are we only parsing the words convenient for our preferred interpretation?

Actually, think about "fastest available means." Literally, in a confined space, like on a small patch of land surrounded by lava, the fastest movement it could achieve would not be by running into lava, it would be by running in a slightly widening circle around the person who gave the command - it is therefore always moving away while also achieving maximum velocity under the circumstances.

It seems to me that if we are going to insist on taking some words as literally as possible, because magic or watever, then we have to take all the words as literally as possible.

Or we could just use common sense.

 

[Lanefan]

Should a 1st-level spell be able to "insta-kill" someone?

Well, Sleep plus coup-de-grace or double-tap has been very efficiently killing things since 1974, so I think the precedent is solidly established.

No, in my opinion, I don't think it should. And thus at no point would I ever interpret the "Flee" Command to force a creature to run into lava or jump off a cliff to instantly kill themselves, regardless of whether or not the spell has written down in it "The create won't do anything to cause itself harm". I can read between the lines and can make a judgement for what makes the most sense for what this 1st-level spell is capable of.

I am not one of those DMs who needs a rule written down that I can choose to ignore. Instead, I am a DM who will happily make a ruling that I will add when one doesn't exist.

What isn't said or implied in the wording is whether the fleeing is controlled (can make rational decisions e.g. to go around an obvious hazard) or uncontrolled (mindless panic).

A rulings challenge might arise when there's a dire hazard that neither the caster nor the target is aware of, e.g. a hidden pit trap or concealed quicksand or a predator lurking in ambush, that the target will find the hard way when it flees from the caster.

 

[SkidAce]

The creature is not acting on a survival instinct, they're acting on a magical compulsion.

I interpret it as the magical compulsion gives (triggers) you the flee "condition".

The compulsion isnt hanging around controlling all your actions and decisions, it added the flee condition for one turn.

So you flee, possibly the same as if you failed a morale check or something.

 

[ECMO3]

Move is not jumping. If you argue with rules, use rules.

This is rich. Apparently, you did you even bother to read the rules yourself before you posted this?

Players Handbook page 24:

"Your movement can include climbing, crawling, jumping, and swimming."

Movespeeds allow you to move. You have to use your fastest.

Yes and if that means you can't crawl unless you have to and it means you must jump if there is no other way to move further.

Yes. I use my fastest movespeed. Fly if I can. Walk if I can't.

No you use the fastest means available. If you are in a tunnel where you can't stand up you crawl, if your flys speed is faster than your walking speed you fly, if you have to jump, you jump.

You don't go around an invisible wall of force. Otherwise I will game your game and command my allies to find secret doors.

Read the rules! There is no "command to find secret doors"

In 2024 you can do 5 things and only 5 things with command: Halt, Drop, Flee, Grovel and Approach. Each of those has explicit things it does.

Yes. I really dislike this change. Although I think most plants won't unroot themself.
But I think they can perfectly follow the command: "halt".'

Your dislike of the new rules does not change the rules.

And hopefully not when the bos commands you to jump down the cliff.

The spell is the spell, if your boss commands me to flee and I fail the save and there is a cliff I run off it if that is the fastest way to "move away".

That is the game and it is no different than if the boss casts Thunderwave at me and does more damage than my hit points.

It is more powerful. Because theoretically every cliff less than 60ft away is dangerous.

So what. Most PCs can make multiple attacks and there is no save and there does not have to be a specific orientation. This example with a cliff is extremely situational requiring specific geometry and spacing AND there is a saving throw, which Legendary creatures can pass at will.

It is not nearly as powerful in play. I've played a ton of 2024. There are many more bad guys pushed into walls of fire, spirit guardians, Spike Growth or pushed off buildings or pushed into Lava then there have been commanded to do that. On the order of probably 100 times more. I've only actually seen one enemy pushed off a cliff in 2024, but that enemy was pushed using shove.

For approach it has to be a certain setup. Flee won't let anyone jump to their peril if there is any other sane route at least.

What does sanity have to do with it? It works on sane and insane enemies alike and does the same thing to both. Having a sane route that is not the fastest means that route will not be taken.

Please note my google search of the word "flee" a few posts above.

It encompasses the words "escape from danger".

The word flee and the command flee from the spell are different things. If you were playing a 2104 game you would have a point, but the 2024 spell is different mechanically.

 

[ECMO3]

I interpret it as the magical compulsion gives (triggers) you the flee "condition".

The compulsion isnt hanging around controlling all your actions and decisions, it added the flee condition for one turn.

Conditions are in the rules, there are 15 conditions "flee" as well as the other command options are not conditions as desciribed by the rules. There are specific mechanics associated with the command spell and it dictates what the target does on their turn.

The different commands have different results but the spell does generally control the Actions on your turn (you can't take any) as you explicitly end your turn when you complete the command with most of the Command options.

But things that they do at the start of their turn or as part of movement are fine and they can do whatever they want in that regard. Likewise they can also communicate and interact with objects during their move.

So you can yell to your allies - "please resurrect me" and drop your sword on the ground as you run off the cliff. If you are concentrating on Conjure animals and are commanded to you can move the animals along with their move.

They also still get reactions and legendary actions both before their turn and after as the spell does not affect those at all.

So you flee, possibly the same as if you failed a morale check or something.

I don't know what a morale check is, I don't think that is in the rules. When a target is commanded to "Flee" with the spell "Command" and fails its save the target "The target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means." because that is what the spell says it does.

 

[SkidAce]

Conditions are in the rules, there are 15 conditions "flee" as well as the other command options are not conditions as desciribed by the rules. There are specific mechanics associated with the command spell and it dictates what the target does on their turn.

The different commands have different results but the spell does generally control the Actions on your turn (you can't take any) as you explicitly end your turn when you complete the command with most of the Command options.

But things that they do at the start of their turn or as part of movement are fine and they can do whatever they want in that regard. Likewise they can also communicate and interact with objects during their move.

So you can yell to your allies - "please resurrect me" and drop your sword on the ground as you run off the cliff. If you are concentrating on Conjure animals and are commanded to you can move the animals along with their move.

They also still get reactions and legendary actions both before their turn and after as the spell does not affect those at all.



I don't know what a morale check is, I don't think that is in the rules. When a target is commanded to "Flee" with the spell "Command" and fails its save the target "The target spends its turn moving away from you by the fastest available means." because that is what the spell says it does.

Notice the term condition was in quotes, meaning "somewhat like"

But I hear you.

 

[Clint_L]

Notice the term condition was in quotes, meaning "somewhat like"

But I hear you.

Note that the flee command says nothing about getting as far away from the command giver as possible. It simply says to move as fast as possible away from them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is rich. Apparently, you did you even bother to read the rules yourself before you posted this?

Players Handbook page 24:

"Your movement can include climbing, crawling, jumping, and swimming."

I stand corrected. I was looking at movement speeds.

Yes and if that means you can't crawl unless you have to and it means you must jump if there is no other way to move further.

If there is no other way, ok.

No you use the fastest means available. If you are in a tunnel where you can't stand up you crawl, if your flys speed is faster than your walking speed you fly, if you have to jump, you jump.

Ok. But not into lava. Because then you are stuck. Or to death, then you don't move anymore.

Read the rules! There is no "command to find secret doors"

No. But if the spell detects an invisible wall of force, I command you to flee when you are in room without a different exit. I block the only exit. The spell will force you to find the invisible secret door so you can move away.

In 2024 you can do 5 things and only 5 things with command: Halt, Drop, Flee, Grovel and Approach. Each of those has explicit things it does.

Irrelevant as explained above.

Your dislike of the new rules does not change the rules.

Your interpretation is not the only possible one.

The spell is the spell, if your boss commands me to flee and I fail the save and there is a cliff I run off it if that is the fastest way to "move away".

Ok. If my boss tells me to flee, I use the fastest one to escape safely if possible. Because killing myself is not fleeing per definition of the rules.
If jumping is the only possible way to have a chance of survival, I take my chances and jump.
(Imagine a fire in your home. You should flee. If you can safely exit without juming through a window, I guess you do).

That is the game and it is no different than if the boss casts Thunderwave at me and does more damage than my hit points.

Or pushes you down a cliff.
There is a difderence however. Thunderwave does not make you flee.
Should I google it again for you?

So what. Most PCs can make multiple attacks and there is no save and there does not have to be a specific orientation. This example with a cliff is extremely situational requiring specific geometry and spacing AND there is a saving throw, which Legendary creatures can pass at will.

Irrelevant.

It is not nearly as powerful in play. I've played a ton of 2024.

Me too.

There are many more bad guys pushed into walls of fire, spirit guardians, Spike Growth or pushed off buildings or pushed into Lava then there have been commanded to do that.

Cool.

On the order of probably 100 times more.

Ok. But what does this has to do with command spell?

I've only actually seen one enemy pushed off a cliff in 2024, but that enemy was pushed using shove.

Same.

What does sanity have to do with it? It works on sane and insane enemies alike and does the same thing to both. Having a sane route that is not the fastest means that route will not be taken.

Because it is a way of moving that you are used to. Jumping down a cliff takes away your ability to move.

The word flee and the command flee from the spell are different things. If you were playing a 2104 game you would have a point, but the 2024 spell is different mechanically.

It says you should move the fastest way possible. If you jump from a cliff, you go down. That does not dramatically increase the distance first. So do we have to model it in 3d first and look which way is faster?

Edit: I agree that the spell as written can be interpreted either way.
I will stop commenting here.
Everyone should play as they like.

Edit2:
One last question... in your games, if a high level spellcaster is commanded to flee, do they have to cast teleport to get to the farthest away place they know?