Let's Talk About Metacurrency

[MichaelSomething]

In some early 90s version of what was probably DC Heroes, one of Batman's super powers was that the player could, X number of times, just say that Batman had planned ahead and was packing the exact right gadget needed for the problem at hand. Boomerang gun? Check. Mirror covered mask? Got it. Shark repellent? He's got two.

That's not taking anything away from the sim. A human player, pretending to be Batman, is not Batman. There is no amount of realistic, simulative planning ahead that a normal human being could do to prepare for the unexpected the way that Batman does.

People can do it; they just don't want to buy a fifty dollar, three hundred page gadget book and spend up to three hours every session managing equipment loadouts.

 

[Deadstop]

That's not taking anything away from the sim. A human player, pretending to be Batman, is not Batman. There is no amount of realistic, simulative planning ahead that a normal human being could do to prepare for the unexpected the way that Batman does. You don't have to fly in real life to pretend to be Superman. You don't have to be able to read other people's minds to pretend to be Professor X. You don't need to be strong enough to lift a tank to pretend to be the Hulk. That's a metacurrency that is LETTING you play the game as a simulation.

I noted something similar earlier about the tendency of modern heist/caper RPGs to include a mechanism for flashbacks that change the context of a problem, or happening to have equipment on you that was not specifically mentioned. Players can’t usually plan like an actual heist crew, and GMs don’t often want to prep to the level of detail that would let them do so. So to feel like the characters in that kind of competence porn, it’s easier (and more reflective of how the media themselves present it, since the audience is rarely made — or allowed — to sit through every detail of plannng beforehand) if the players have a resource that lets them adapt to obstacles as they run across them, or even explain how they already handled that in a scene we didn’t see before, and the gun is unloaded or the cops are actually some of our contacts pretending to arrest us, that kind of thing.

 

[VHawkwinter]

Also I don't think simulation per se is unpopular, people still definitely want some amount of it, even though they are satisfied with less than what @Micah Sweet wants. But D&D 4e was mostly rejected because it went too far into "gamism over sim" direction.

Dunno how generalisable that is, but that's certainly a good chunk of why I bounced off of 4e. That and what they did to the Forgotten Realms setting. Awful, awful stuff.

 

[VHawkwinter]

I think the reality is that D&D has had to start listening to more diverse voices as it grew, and that will leave folks who would have favored a more traditional approach a bit wanting.

Sounds about right.

Clearly the solution is that the non "traditional" gamer be cosigned to a lower status position within the D&D world and their desires be oppressed!

We're just not their target customer anymore. They've moved on.

I know it isn't rational, but honestly sometimes it feels like that's already happening.

I think the answer is to just play (or make) the games we actually want to play; but unlike you for whom it's just not your preference, I found 5e actively unfun and eventually concluded I would rather read a book, play a videogame, or watch a movie than play 5e again.

If by "solution" you mean, "thing that will get D&D consigned to irrelevance quickly", then sure, I guess.

You think 5e is still catering to the same core demographic they did 20-30 years ago? I think they moved on to newer (larger) markets.

That's not taking anything away from the sim. A human player, pretending to be Batman, is not Batman. There is no amount of realistic, simulative planning ahead that a normal human being could do to prepare for the unexpected the way that Batman does. You don't have to fly in real life to pretend to be Superman. You don't have to be able to read other people's minds to pretend to be Professor X. You don't need to be strong enough to lift a tank to pretend to be the Hulk. That's a metacurrency that is LETTING you play the game as a simulation.

That is a good example of an exception which usually wouldn't apply. I could also see it in a Bill and Ted type game where they need to remember to use the time machine to go steal Ted's dad's keys later so the keys will be where they need them to be. Generally though, I think metacurrencies detract from the experience.

 

[VHawkwinter]

I noted something similar earlier about the tendency of modern heist/caper RPGs to include a mechanism for flashbacks that change the context of a problem, or happening to have equipment on you that was not specifically mentioned. Players can’t usually plan like an actual heist crew, and GMs don’t often want to prep to the level of detail that would let them do so. So to feel like the characters in that kind of competence porn, it’s easier (and more reflective of how the media themselves present it, since the audience is rarely made — or allowed — to sit through every detail of plannng beforehand) if the players have a resource that lets them adapt to obstacles as they run across them, or even explain how they already handled that in a scene we didn’t see before, and the gun is unloaded or the cops are actually some of our contacts pretending to arrest us, that kind of thing.

My favourite part of shadowrun was always doing legwork and then spending like an hour or more ironing out the heist plan with the guys, in exhaustive detail. Much more fun to pull out the maps and start talking about guard rotations and the type of vault involved etc, than to spend an hour on combat.

But yeah, they definitely don't cover the drafting of "the plan" indepth in heist movies. Haha

 

[Micah Sweet]

Egads. I know that there are almost 40 more pages of discussion ahead of this that I still need to chew through, but this reminded me of the first metacurrency I remember seeing.

In some early 90s version of what was probably DC Heroes, one of Batman's super powers was that the player could, X number of times, just say that Batman had planned ahead and was packing the exact right gadget needed for the problem at hand. Boomerang gun? Check. Mirror covered mask? Got it. Shark repellent? He's got two.

That's not taking anything away from the sim. A human player, pretending to be Batman, is not Batman. There is no amount of realistic, simulative planning ahead that a normal human being could do to prepare for the unexpected the way that Batman does. You don't have to fly in real life to pretend to be Superman. You don't have to be able to read other people's minds to pretend to be Professor X. You don't need to be strong enough to lift a tank to pretend to be the Hulk. That's a metacurrency that is LETTING you play the game as a simulation.

The Hulk, Superman, and Professor X have measurable super powers. Batman just having whatever is needed is a narrative conceits. Do you not see the difference?

 

[Micah Sweet]

People can do it; they just don't want to buy a fifty dollar, three hundred page gadget book and spend up to three hours every session managing equipment loadouts.

Who's "they"? I just bought a huge book full of gear, weapons, armor, and vehicles for modern-futuristic games using the 5e rules, and it is a joy! Seriously, hundreds of entries with actual rules, in a newly published book mind you. So tell me, who's the target audience for that, if you're right? Just me?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I noted something similar earlier about the tendency of modern heist/caper RPGs to include a mechanism for flashbacks that change the context of a problem, or happening to have equipment on you that was not specifically mentioned. Players can’t usually plan like an actual heist crew, and GMs don’t often want to prep to the level of detail that would let them do so. So to feel like the characters in that kind of competence porn, it’s easier (and more reflective of how the media themselves present it, since the audience is rarely made — or allowed — to sit through every detail of plannng beforehand) if the players have a resource that lets them adapt to obstacles as they run across them, or even explain how they already handled that in a scene we didn’t see before, and the gun is unloaded or the cops are actually some of our contacts pretending to arrest us, that kind of thing.

If the system tells to just decide what I want in the moment and reorder reality to make it have already happened, I do not feel any kind of competence porn, because IMO I didn't actually do anything.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sounds about right.


We're just not their target customer anymore. They've moved on.


I think the answer is to just play (or make) the games we actually want to play; but unlike you for whom it's just not your preference, I found 5e actively unfun and eventually concluded I would rather read a book, play a videogame, or watch a movie than play 5e again.


You think 5e is still catering to the same core demographic they did 20-30 years ago? I think they moved on to newer (larger) markets.


That is a good example of an exception which usually wouldn't apply. I could also see it in a Bill and Ted type game where they need to remember to use the time machine to go steal Ted's dad's keys later so the keys will be where they need them to be. Generally though, I think metacurrencies detract from the experience.

What RPGs do you prefer? Sounds like we have a lot in common.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Who's "they"? I just bought a huge book full of gear, weapons, armor, and vehicles for modern-futuristic games using the 5e rules, and it is a joy! Seriously, hundreds of entries with actual rules, in a newly published book mind you. So tell me, who's the target audience for that, if you're right? Just me?

Protip: when you're glazing a TTRPG product, you should share its name, and ideally, a link to where others can buy it. That'll translate into the people making the stuff you want getting more sales and will therefore be more incentivised to make more of it.