D&D 5E (2024) Skeleton Familiar plus Net = Fisher of Men

[abolitionrpg]

This was a reply to you. You stated "familiars have specific DCs attached to their attacks." That statement is false. Further this thread is about familiars on a Warlock with Investment of the Chain Master which can both attack AND take the attack action per the specific rules of that Invocation.

i see i misspoke/typed - my statement should read: familiars have specific DCs attached to their actions. to argue (per the previous poster) that replacing the familiar's DC with the warlock's dc is general - and that state IS false.

Grappling is an unarmed strike which is an "attack" because the PHB says it is: "In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you." and it does not have a DC specific to a familiar, but rather uses a general rule for DC.

indeed... and the specific rule of the invocation over the general rule of grapple. you keep saying switching this around- specific overrides general, just as above the specific rule of the invocation overrides the general rule of familiars.

There are no specific attacks I know of for familiars that have a DC. This is certainly true for the Warlock-specific familiars, including the Skeleton this thread is based on. I believe it is true for ALL potential familiars in 5.5E. I could be wrong, you can scour the 5.5 monster manual to see if there is a CR 0 beast that has a DC on an attack, but I don't think there is.

indeed, but that is not a rule - general or specific. there is no rule that says familiars don't have attacks with DCs.

The things familiars do that have specific DCs are not attacks. I named some of them - Heartsight, Sting and Scare from Sprite, Pseudodragon and Quasit respectively. If you look at 0 CR beasts you can add mimicry from the Raven. Those are the things with DCs that "familiars typically do" and they are all of the save DCs specific to a familiar that I know of.



It does not say "any DC that results from the familiar's action" it says "any DC forced by the familiar" ... which to me means one of the familiars specific abilities or actions.

that is totally fine if thats what it means to you or your table. there is no such rule that exists as far as i know or have seen. i am saying to you, your inference that "force" somehow means something different than the standard definition of "to compel" then we have no real ground to stand on. i certainly would respect that rule if the dm or house or group decided that it somehow meant this unusual interpretation of the word "force"

The net is forcing it not the familiar. Same thing if the familiar shoves an enemy into spirit guardians - it is the cleric's save DC, not the warlocks save. Same if it uses a wand on an enemy, it is the wand DC, same if he shoves him into Lava and he and he has to save to determine how much he gets burned These things are all "forced" by the item or environment, not by the familiar.

the area effect of the spell has nothing to do with the familiar nor being pushed into lava, i am not sure why that is a sticking point. those are specific rules that happen in their own specific manner. not all terrain is lava, specificity. not all emanations are spirit guardians, specificity. magic items in general have specific rules that override the mechanics on a case by case basis... all nets are nets, generally. i do think your comment about the caltrops is potentially a grey area, it does leave room for interpretation, i personally would probably still rule in favor of the familiar forcing that save, but obviously that is moot in this current argument.

From the PHB, note the underlined and bolded:

Shove: The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition.

understood! sorry i thought you were saying shove OR push - as if they were two different functions, but it is just a shove.

Why would it when the Familiar is "forcing" the save by your definition?

I don't think it is up for debate, but it happening because the skeleton pushed the bad guy into the spirit guardians. So either the Skeleton forced it it or the Spirit guardians forced it and the same logic would apply if it threw a net.

attacker pushing someone into an emanation is not the attacker forcing a saving throw for the spell (unless the attacker is also the caster) - the cleric put the spell there, the cleric forces the save

Not a skill check a DC - for example from Saltmarsh the Crumbling Bedroom: Falling Through the Floor. The tracks left on the floor by the smugglers represent the only safe places to walk in the room. Each time a Medium or larger creature moves off this safe trail into the shaded area on the map, it must succeed on a DC 12 Dexterity saving throw or fall 10 feet through the floor, landing in area 6.

So skeleton pushes creature on to the floor do they make a Warlock save DC or a DC 12 Dexterity saving throw?

see above - familiar not forcing the save. trap (just like cleric) is forcing a save.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

. i may need some clarification on what "familiars typically do"

This will vary a lot between tables, and will typically depend on the nature of the familiar - which is not covered by the rules. An owl familiar can grapple - something mouse sized, a quipper cannot grapple anything. A monkey familiar can do a lot of things a spider cannot, but is less likely to be ignored.

And of course, with the skeleton, the rules don't say anything about if it can equip and use any equipment not in it's stat block.

 

[ECMO3]

indeed... and the specific rule of the invocation over the general rule of grapple. you keep saying switching this around- specific overrides general, just as above the specific rule of the invocation overrides the general rule of familiars.

I am not hung up on Grapple, I can actually see the argument for that.

indeed, but that is not a rule - general or specific. there is no rule that says familiars don't have attacks with DCs.

As a point of fact none of the familiars in 5.5E have attacks with DCs and this is a fundamental and specific shift in the rules that applies across most (all?) of the monsters when they went to 5.5E.

There is no rule that says famili don't automatically kill everyone within 50 feet when you summon them either, it is just assumed they don't because if they did there would be a rule for that.

If we want to get technical about rules, there is no 5.5E rule that specific beats general either, it is a just a common practice/convention like using dex score to break initiative ties.

That is totally fine if thats what it means to you or your table. there is no such rule that exists as far as i know or have seen. i am saying to you, your inference that "force" somehow means something different than the standard definition of "to compel" then we have no real ground to stand on.

Yeah exactly read the defintion.

They are not "compelling" an enemy to get caught up in a net when they throw it on them.

They are not "compelling" an enemy to stop when the enemies chooses to step on a Caltrop.

the area effect of the spell has nothing to do with the familiar nor being pushed into lava, i am not sure why that is a sticking point.

Using your definition of "Force" I think there is actually a stronger argument they "compel" as save by pushing them into Lava or into spirit guardians then there is for letting loose a lightning bolt from a Wand or Dropping Caltrops or Throwing a net.

I actually think if you read the definition of force you posted and think about it you will see that.