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The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard
- Thread starter Mouseferatu
- Start date
Dthamilaye
First Post
Uhh... hello.
Don't know if I get my head cut off right way for sticking it into this
.
I have to admit that I skipped pages 4-12, don't have too much extra time at work. So my idea could have already surfaced before. If so, I'm sorry for repeating it.
I don't see the Psion as overpowered. They do have some things that (IMHO) are bit over the top, but (IMHO) do not affect the game play THAT much.
Mostly the no somatic, verbal or material components and the possibility to use any armour.
But:
Have you considered the PrCs at all? What happens when the Psion vs Sorcerer -debate is done with PrCs? After all, who plays bare sorcerer for 20 levels?
Archmage costs a lot to get into. 3 feats, One of them quite useless. However, EVERY sorcerer I have seen, has tried to get into Archmage. That goes for all wizard too btw. There the sorcerer gets the 'Any elemental damage at will', the super-uber ability "Arcane Fire' (Yes, this is one of the most powerful abilities I know for caster), and 3 other nice things. Add in any other 10 level PrC and sorcerer looks much better.
For Psion player, what PrCs there are (in the books, not in some web-enchantment or Dragon), that are of any use?
Maybe my opinion is biased, but I think Archmage is kind of a default PrC that every arcane caster strives to get. Psion has no such PrCs, as even 1 lost manifester level really cuts into his PPs and powers.
Of course, if the WotC makes Archmage/Hierophant -style PrC to Psion too, then this point of view becomes void.
Thank you.
Don't know if I get my head cut off right way for sticking it into this
.I have to admit that I skipped pages 4-12, don't have too much extra time at work. So my idea could have already surfaced before. If so, I'm sorry for repeating it.
I don't see the Psion as overpowered. They do have some things that (IMHO) are bit over the top, but (IMHO) do not affect the game play THAT much.
Mostly the no somatic, verbal or material components and the possibility to use any armour.
But:
Have you considered the PrCs at all? What happens when the Psion vs Sorcerer -debate is done with PrCs? After all, who plays bare sorcerer for 20 levels?
Archmage costs a lot to get into. 3 feats, One of them quite useless. However, EVERY sorcerer I have seen, has tried to get into Archmage. That goes for all wizard too btw. There the sorcerer gets the 'Any elemental damage at will', the super-uber ability "Arcane Fire' (Yes, this is one of the most powerful abilities I know for caster), and 3 other nice things. Add in any other 10 level PrC and sorcerer looks much better.
For Psion player, what PrCs there are (in the books, not in some web-enchantment or Dragon), that are of any use?
Maybe my opinion is biased, but I think Archmage is kind of a default PrC that every arcane caster strives to get. Psion has no such PrCs, as even 1 lost manifester level really cuts into his PPs and powers.
Of course, if the WotC makes Archmage/Hierophant -style PrC to Psion too, then this point of view becomes void.
Thank you.
Thanee
First Post
Well, the Elemental Mastery will just make them get even on that part, since the psion has it from the start, and Arcane Fire, I never really realized why this ability is seen as so powerful?
It's available at 17th level (18th for a sorcerer) earliest.
It allows you to do *at most* 14d6 to a single target using a *9th* level slot (which could do things like Meteor Swarm or Time Stop or Shapechange or Gate). With a 2nd level slot you do 7d6 as opposed to the 12d6 from Scorching Ray, tho this is fair given the high range and no energy resistance trouble.
It's a good ability for sure, but especially the sorcerer can use damaging spells instead, it's better for the wizard I think, who can then neglect offensive preparations to a degree, which is the bigger advantage of this ability. It's still a weak attack in relation to the power used to fuel it.
Then there is Spell Power, a good ability, since it let's you scale spells even further (caps are still a hindrance, however), but compare this to Overchannel/Talented, which the psion can exceed the power level of their powers with (not only the manifester level). With powers like Astral Construct you can do something, which is more than just a higher manifester level, an 11th level psion can manifest the equivalent of a 7th level power this way already, altho the highest they can learn is 6th level still, using the right powers, of course!
Anyways...
So far, in all games I have played, I have seen only one person aim for the archmage, and that was a 3.0 wizard. I have considered it for my sorceress, but realized, that the price to get there will be too high for too little benefit (for my character specifically).
But that aside, yes, PrC options are better for arcanists (much like their spell options) right now, for the sole reason, that there are more books on them. At least in 3.0 there was a lot of stuff for psionic characters on the WotC site, I can only guess that this will be true for 3.5 also (they already started adding stuff there, so this is not that much of a stretch).
Bye
Thanee
It's available at 17th level (18th for a sorcerer) earliest.
It allows you to do *at most* 14d6 to a single target using a *9th* level slot (which could do things like Meteor Swarm or Time Stop or Shapechange or Gate). With a 2nd level slot you do 7d6 as opposed to the 12d6 from Scorching Ray, tho this is fair given the high range and no energy resistance trouble.
It's a good ability for sure, but especially the sorcerer can use damaging spells instead, it's better for the wizard I think, who can then neglect offensive preparations to a degree, which is the bigger advantage of this ability. It's still a weak attack in relation to the power used to fuel it.
Then there is Spell Power, a good ability, since it let's you scale spells even further (caps are still a hindrance, however), but compare this to Overchannel/Talented, which the psion can exceed the power level of their powers with (not only the manifester level). With powers like Astral Construct you can do something, which is more than just a higher manifester level, an 11th level psion can manifest the equivalent of a 7th level power this way already, altho the highest they can learn is 6th level still, using the right powers, of course!
Anyways...
So far, in all games I have played, I have seen only one person aim for the archmage, and that was a 3.0 wizard. I have considered it for my sorceress, but realized, that the price to get there will be too high for too little benefit (for my character specifically).
But that aside, yes, PrC options are better for arcanists (much like their spell options) right now, for the sole reason, that there are more books on them. At least in 3.0 there was a lot of stuff for psionic characters on the WotC site, I can only guess that this will be true for 3.5 also (they already started adding stuff there, so this is not that much of a stretch
).Bye
Thanee
Last edited:
Shadowdweller
Explorer
At the cost of psionic focus or a fair bit of damage depending on the power's level. And also note that the sorceror can use metamagic rods to empower, maximize, or quicken her highest level damage spells (provided she has invested in such rods), which is often significantly better than mere overchanneling.
Thanee
First Post
Yep, metamagic rods are also something, that doesn't sit right with me entirely. And I think there are many people having problems with the high end versions of those. But I'm sure you could do the same with metapsionics and some item creation feat, so that's hardly an issue between the classes.
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Not really. A mid-high level Psion is better off being grappled by the barbarian than having the barbarian beat his head in with a greatsword. His offensive capability is not significantly reduced and the barbarian will deal less damage than he would otherwise. He's also less vulnerable to missile weapon fire than he would otherwise be. That's not true of a sor/wiz. The primary disadvantages for a psion being grappled is the more difficult concentration check and the vulnerability to sneak attacks. It's simply not too much of a disadvantage for him.
Scion said:
Thanee
First Post
Yep, in our last session the barbarian (10th level) grappled an opposing wizard, who happened to not have any Dimension Door prepared (which made sense given the situation, however) and thus was completely helpless. However, the damage the barbarian dealt per round was easily cut to one third or so! Still a good deal, considering, that he was fairly low on HP already and the last spell aimed at him was a Disintegrate.
Bye
Thanee
Bye
Thanee
Elder-Basilisk said:
Being grappled means at least one concentration check made a round to get that power off, they are very vulnerable to outside influences, and there are other penalties as well (anyone know if grappling damage counts as continual or not?).
::shrugs:: I have said from the beginning that the psion is better off, but any caster caught in such a situation without some sort of plan is in for a world of hurt.
Dead is still dead.
Besides, being grappled by a pc class generally isnt the worst case scenario, it isnt even always in the running (except for specialized builds). Even a normal caster type can be more or less ok with even a modicrum of thought ahead of time (which if they dont do they deserve to die).
Thanee
First Post
Scion said:
Nope, tho constrict might be argueable, that's pretty close I think.
That's all which is being said, in a pin or grapple+silence or combined with dimensional anchor, the wizard needs to have Silent Spell (an otherwise useless feat for wizards) and prepare a silent Dimension Door instead of some other spell (and if the Concentration check on that single spell fails, the wizard is out of options already), the sorcerer is unable to get out there, anyways, while the psion is not hindered in such a strong way, since Concentration checks are doable, and there is no restriction on useable powers at all (arcanists can use Dimension Door or Teleport, that's it pretty much). It's not as good as not being grappled, of course, tho damage is usually lower, so it's not that much worse either, and once Concentration is high enough, which it should be, anyways, as it is needed all the time (even more so for psions, I think they need Concentration to regain focus, too), the only limitation becomes neglectible.
Bye
Thanee
Last edited:
nimisgod
LEW Judge
Wanted to add that it doesn't always have to be a powerful damage dealing brute that grapples a spellcaster to prevent spellcasting/manifesting.
If a goblin or an owlbear grappled my 10th level sorc or wiz, then I can't use any of my spells with somatic components. Were I a psion, I could still use practically any power available to me.
The point is that arcanists are greviously hindered by any kind of grappling attack. To psions, the quality of the grappler is actually considered. Even if I were grappled I could still help the party with my powers instead of free myself. With the arcanist, however, you aren't given a lot of options...and whilst grappled, are useless to the party (except by making the grappler vulnerable).
If a goblin or an owlbear grappled my 10th level sorc or wiz, then I can't use any of my spells with somatic components. Were I a psion, I could still use practically any power available to me.
The point is that arcanists are greviously hindered by any kind of grappling attack. To psions, the quality of the grappler is actually considered. Even if I were grappled I could still help the party with my powers instead of free myself. With the arcanist, however, you aren't given a lot of options...and whilst grappled, are useless to the party (except by making the grappler vulnerable).
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