Chainmail Bikinis & other Cheesecake art in the 4th Edition Core Books.

Corinth said:

Take a mundane woman. Clothe her appropriately for her age, status and location. Add just one small detail that places her as other than human--use that Uncanny Valley to effect--and do so while adhering to known mythology about demoniacally-tainted bloodlines. (By default, we are speaking of Abrahamic tradition, so we shall concentrate on features such as unnatural eye color, fingers that appear to be functional as claws or talons, tail-like growths at the base of the spine, etc.). Done and done; it's not nearly as hard or implausible as you imply.

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Actually I'm talking about a default 4e tiefling with the giant horns from what I've seen so far, not one with one small detail that's different from other humans. And from what I can tell they are from a decadent devil pacting high fantasy empire.

Warlock in such a culture would not be the downtrodden peasant witch status but full out fantasy sorceress by default I would think. Conan style artwork seems an appropriate starting place as does Moorcockian Melnibonean influences. Both give me more of a fantasy than realism default image in my mind.

Having now read R&C and seen all the art in context, I have to express some disappointment. Dwarf clerics in chainmail bikinis? Come on WotC, you're better than that. Making even the races that were safe from being relegated to eye candy into eye candy? That's a step backwards.

I actually picked up R&C to get my wife into the 4e anticipation thing a bit (she doesn't follow it online, and there's too much to easily summarize), but she was really unhappy with the art. She thought it was a few steps backwards for WotC compared to 3e, and after reading it myself I have to agree.

IanB said:

Dwarf clerics in chainmail bikinis?

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Looking at that picture, I'm hard pressed to see it as a bikini, and more as a chainmail skirt and chainmail midriff top. When I think chainmail bikini, I think... http://images.elfwood.com/art/d/a/davey/014.jpg

And as for the comparison to 3e art, the races sketch in the 3e PHB is more revealing than that (especially the elf chick on the right, page 13 3.5 PHB), as is the monk artwork.

Mourn said:

Looking at that picture, I'm hard pressed to see it as a bikini, and more as a chainmail skirt and chainmail midriff top. When I think chainmail bikini, I think... http://images.elfwood.com/art/d/a/davey/014.jpg

And as for the comparison to 3e art, the races sketch in the 3e PHB is more revealing than that (especially the elf chick on the right, page 13 3.5 PHB), as is the monk artwork.

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I was using "chainmail bikini" as shorthand for "unrealistically revealing armor".

Jhulae said:

Might want to qualify that some, because that's really an overgeneralization there.

I've never been alienated by 'cheesecake art', and as others have said, women they know haven't been either.

So, while it may alienate 'some' women gamers, unlike your statement, it doesn't alienate 'all' women gamers.

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This is a fair point - but still, I'd rather have a lack of chainmail bikinis as it's the sort of thing that contributes to the attitude that RPG's somehow aren't for girls.

The women I've gamed with have nearly all been extremely imaginative and good players, and I think anything that prevents them from feeling like it's a hobby they can enjoy (and I'm talking in very general terms) should be toned down or removed.

In the years that I've been a DM I've had 8 female players. By that I mean steady, playing for at least 2 years at a stretch players, not the girlfriends that got brought for a session or two. I lost one to death, two to a move, two to marriage, and one to a divorce, but I still have two in my current group.



My experience reflects only these 8 players, so it should be taken as anecdotal at best. that being said, out of the 8 I've had 5 of them wanted to play "chain mail bikini girls" every time. Playing a fighter? Stacked fighter in the most revealing armor possible. Wizard? Barely-there robe, and described as physically exquisite in appearance... even if charisma was the dump stat. Heck, 3 of those girls used to bring in fantasy girlie pics to use as character portraits.


I guess what I'm saying is that in my experience I've never seen a girl who was offended by the art. In fact, at my table its been the girls who are interested in getting the most revealing clothing possible to cover their character's "assets", even going so far as bringing in "cheesecake art" because what was in the books wasn't "sexy" enough for their characters.



I don't think that the books should be all "cheesecake" or even close to softcore porn, but I do think that a fair number of female players want to play over-the-top "sexy" characters, just like a fair number of guys want to play over-the-top strong/beefy characters.



Not trying to offend anyone, just sharing what I've seen at the table.

I'll offer an example of the worst kind of cheesecake:

There's a Brazilian RPG setting here, and one of the core books had, on its cover, a woman leading an army to assault a city. She was wearing plate mail... and a THONG! With her arse towards the viewer!

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That struck me as a bit too much.

I think Claudio's Image #2 and #3 (ADD: See Page 1) hit it just right for a D&D product. I love Image #1 the most of course because I have that all-important male XY gene pairing and the classic response to visual stimuli.

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Let me preface this by saying that I am a gay man. And I'm not particularly interested in cheesecake OR beefcake.

That said: I agree with Varianor Abroad about liking #2 and #3. I think they defintiely hit the right tone with that.

#1? Granted, as a gay man, I'm not the target audience, but I don't care for it. It doesn't bother me, and I don't find it offensive, but I can't see it in the core books, as opposed to the other two, which I could see in the PHB or DMG.

Now, for an example of art that does rub me the wrong way?

The cover for 'Savant and SOrcer" for Exalted.

I am also against "unrealistically revealing armor", but sadly people like me are in the minority. Most people want naked flesh which is not unsurprisingly as the target group of D&D includes horny teenagers....

ShadowDenizen said:

Now, for an example of art that does rub me the wrong way?

The cover for "Savant and Sorcerer" for Exalted.

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The worst thing about that cover is that the lady's attire would have been fine if drawn/painted from a different camera angle.