Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

jonesy · Aug 10, 2010

jasin said:

For people who don't know Jenny Poussin, that's actually quite a lot of clothes she's wearing there.

arscott · Aug 10, 2010

ShinHakkaider said:
One of the reasons that I liked 3x was that the art depicted more than just white male (humans) as adventurers. Granted I still have no idea what race Redgar was but he wasn't the homogenous depiction of the strapping white guy with sword and armor or staff.

Redgar, IIRC was intentionally of indistinct race--a compromise between the designers--who were pushing very hard for a set of racially-and-gender-diverse iconics, and the marketing team who wanted a big strong white dude to put on the cover.

I'm sure that there are gay guys who are looking at the art and liking it the same way there are lesbians who are looking at the cheesecake and liking it.

See that's the thing. There's such a thing as beefcake. But the bare chested dudes in the art? They're not beefcake. There's a world of difference between, for example, the guy on the cover of Grim Tales and the guy on the cover of a Harlequin Romance.

arscott · Aug 10, 2010

Hussar said:
But, let's not ignore the issue either and sweep it under the carpet. Our chosen genre - Speculative Fiction - has been a white, male dominated genre for the better part of its history. To the point where female writers well into the mid-20th century had to write under male names.

Mid 20th century? The "K" in J.K. Rowling is short for "I made up these initials so my potential readers won't realize I'm a woman".

Krensky · Aug 10, 2010

pawsplay said:
[Seoni's] appearance does not represent anything like a universal ideal of beauty. Wittingly or no, she expresses cultural values that transmit a powerful thin ideal, exoticism, and fetishism. If fetishism is defined as the opposite of utility, Seoni's dress embodies it. It's unlikely her dress could keep her breasts in, much less warm or protected. She would have trouble walking down a Hollywood red carpent in that without showing some nip.

I'm not denigrating fetishism, itself, either. Medievalism is a form of fetishism. I can deal with weapon fetishisim, elf fetishism, leather, boobs, whatever. But in Seoni, I see fetishism for weakness, vulnerability, and objectivism. In isolation, I don't have a problem for that, but in a fantasy character, supposedly not in a highly sexualized context, it is impossible to ignore the larger context. She's not a bad creation, she is simply a case study in a larger phenomenon.

I think what you're seeing has more to do with you then the art. While what you're talking about undeniably exists in SF&F art and in RPG art, this isn't a good target to go after. In fact, getting worked up and ranting over something as inoffensive as Seoni's attire and the Holiday card is likely counter-productive because it just pushes people who might or do agree with you on large, important issues regarding gender equality away or dismiss you as a kook.

pawsplay said:
And this is exactly the kind of post that demonstrates how women have difficulty being taken seriously as something other than bedroom furniture.

Strange, I hear worse from women almost every day. Lighten up.

Umbran · Aug 10, 2010

Hussar said:
Isn't there a middle road to take though? Between, "All Your Pics are Belong to Us" and "Suck it up Buttercup!"? I mean, I think I can look at an image like this one:

(...snip pic...)

and say that, "ayup, that's pretty exploitive."

Thank you Hussar, that pirate picture makes a pretty good example for something I meant about complexity and subtlety in sexism. Sexism is the belief or attitude that one gender or sex is inferior to, less competent, or less valuable than the other, right?

Now, in some of the older, classic sword and sorcery artwork, the woman shows a lot of skin, and is submissive in posture - the classic "hero stands on the hill, muscles flexed, the damsel is curled on the ground by his leg" pose. I can easily see that one as casting the woman as inferior.

But that pirate, however much skin she's showing, is also the captain. She has the rank, the gun, the money, and the dragon: she has power. There is nothing weak about that woman. The way she's dressed is silly, unrealistic for actually doing her job, but it is depicting a strong woman as something that should be attractive.

Should this be seen as a problem?

Desdichado · Aug 10, 2010

arscott said:
Mid 20th century? The "K" in J.K. Rowling is short for "I made up these initials so my potential readers won't realize I'm a woman".

Actually, that's not entirely true. She didn't have any problem lining up publishing writing as Joane Rowling, but Bloomburg, her publisher, thought that the percieved target audience, i.e., young boys, might be leery of reading a book written by a woman.

So actually your example doesn't really prove what you think it proves at all.

evileeyore · Aug 10, 2010

pawsplay said:
And this is exactly the kind of post that demonstrates how people have difficulty being taken seriously as something other than furniture.

Fixed it for my views on everyone.

jasin said:
Two out of three ain't bad...

High heals are not meant for outdoor adventuring...

Oh right.

Krensky · Aug 10, 2010

evileeyore said:
High heals are not meant for outdoor adventuring...

Oh right.

Ignoring the pun...

It's worth mentioning for those unfamiliar that Seoni has never (as far as I can tell or remember) been shown in heels.

Hussar · Aug 10, 2010

Hobo said:
Actually, that's not entirely true. She didn't have any problem lining up publishing writing as Joane Rowling, but Bloomburg, her publisher, thought that the percieved target audience, i.e., young boys, might be leery of reading a book written by a woman.

So actually your example doesn't really prove what you think it proves at all.

Does it really matter if she chose this or her publisher? The point is, someone along the line decided that a female writer wasn't what young men would want to read. Kinda like Andre Norton. Actually, a LOT like Andre Norton.

It does show that we haven't maybe come as far as we'd like to think.

Umbran - while it is true that she is in a position of power, the Piratical Lingerie outfit is a bit much. I mean, look at female pirate depictions in recent Hollywood productions. Either Gina Davis or that woman from the Pirates of the Carribean movies whose name I can never remember don't exactly walk around in bikinis as I recall.

nedjer · Aug 10, 2010

I took my rant about the original OP 'off campus' for a blog post, as I 'disagreed' with the way the other OP had been seeking to link 'Storytelling games' and other 'ungodly' activities to 'girl gamers'.

Having said my piece on that I wasn't sure where I'd draw any exact 'lines' on images, because it's so much to do with context. On reconsidering the images I referred to at the time, I've kind of worked out/ working out my own idea of what I consider OK. Here are three fantasy images - do you 'guys' see a distinction between any of them?

Alternative: Girls (females) in D&D/ Roleplaying

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon

arscott

First Post

arscott

First Post

Krensky

First Post

Umbran

Mod Squad

Desdichado

Hero

evileeyore

Mrrrph

Krensky

First Post

Hussar

Legend

nedjer

Adventurer

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