What is your favorite tier of play?

Balesir

Adventurer
It's only relatively recently that I've got into Epic Tier, but it's at least as fun as the others. I'm tempted to plump for Epic, but I'm aware that is probably partly because it's the "new shiny", relative to the other two. I want to run (and play!) all of them again. I can't say this of any other edition of D&D.

I do very much agree that an "Epic DM's Guide" would have been most welcome, however.
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Although I haven't much experience with high-level play in D&D, I find that I have two responses.

The first is this particular..."thematic" sweet spot, for lack of a better term. In Dungeon World, it starts around level 6, when you first pick up your "higher level" advanced moves, and ends around level 9 or 10, when you've more or less topped out and "advancement" becomes more a matter of your treasure, story progression, etc. (not that those things aren't awesome too!). In 4e, I presume it would kick in at Paragon tier. In Dogs in the Vineyard, it's around the point you get your second multi-20 abilities. It's basically the part of the game where the wheels have started to come off, but things are still serious and can be deadly without being over-the-top. You have enough tools to really dig into the meat of whatever system you're playing; if you've started from 1st level, you've had enough time to get really invested in the story and experience the "I really need to see where this goes" feeling. It's the mechanical and thematic zenith of the campaign, where things are the most open to change and difference, but also where enough is already established to be memorable and thought-provoking.

The second answer is, more or less, "the whole game." The finest wine of the RPG world, to me, is seeing a character grow from modest beginnings with "local" goals, all the way up to celestial heights and globe-spanning priorities. I've experienced two (essentially) complete campaigns of such, and had an utter blast doing so. It's partially a function of group dynamic (which my two groups were lovely), partially a function of good storytelling, and partially a function of "feeling" the story and game from each perspective--a wide-open world of possibility, a work-in-progress with enough hooks to make me care and enough questions left unanswered to keep me guessing, and a story concluded (in triumph or defeat) with the loose ends tied up (or left for another to address). Each tier offers enough of its own enticements to be fun and exciting, so it's genuinely hard for me to pick even something as narrow as a 10-level range and say "that's the one I like" (but, then again, I have trouble picking a single favorite food, so...take that with a grain of salt.)
 

Tellerian Hawke

Defender of Oerth
I have often wondered how, in a gaming culture where people my age (mid-40's) have grown up with D&D, and gone through all the editions, very few of them have ever played "high level" or "epic" games.

Let me give you some history. I started in 5th grade (circa 1979) with what I call "Red Cover" Basic D&D. [This one: ]

basic9rule.jpg

and I played that [Along with the Expert Rules] until about 7th grade. That's when everyone was switching over to First Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

I played AD&D 1st Ed all the way through junior high, high school, and into college. I was always in the same group of about 10 guys, and of those, about 3 of them were DMs. The rest of us were players (only.)

We ran A LOT of characters, some of whom survived, but many of whom did not. But the ones that did survive, session after session, became our favorites, and soon, attained "high level" (20th level) status.

At that point, we would make up other characters who were henchmen for our high level guys, and we would do things for them. (Retrieve lost artifacts, gather rare spell components, etc.) Basically, what we were doing, to put it in more up-to-date terms, was creating cohorts, and then playing them as characters, in order to increase the power of our other characters. Ha ha.

Well, after our high level guys had acquired a bunch of stuff from their "henchmen," we started creating homebrew tables and rules for beyond 20th level. (We had no concept of "epic," we still just called it "high level.")

Then we just kept playing and playing and playing, until our characters were INSANELY high level (mid-60's!)

Of course, in those days, the difference between 20th and 60th was an extra 40-120 hit pts (depending on class) and of course the level itself; in those days, being a 60th level magic-user meant that you could cast a 60HD fireball. But past a certain point, the only real advantage you got for being that high level was the prestige of having lived that long. And a hoarde of money and magic items that would make Smaug's hoarde look like a small-town garage sale. :) The only thing we had that really gave us a big advantage was that we all had one or two artifacts apiece. One of us had the Sword of Kas, another guy had a Sphere of Annihilation, one guy had the Staff of the Magi, and my guy (Hawke) had two artifacts that were custom made for my friend Cody's campaign, Elvensword and Flyshield.

Of course, when 2nd edition hit, we had to re-assess what we had been doing. So we "demoted" our high level guys back down to 15th level, and started playing around with the new ways of doing things. We didn't make 1st level 2nd ed characters until our high level guys had made it back to 20th. [We didn't go past 20th in 2nd ed, because the book just sort of said you shouldn't do it. So we didn't.]

The new characters that we made were all descendants of our high level guys, and we fudged a bit, and were thus running around at 1st level with +3 swords that we picked up from "uncle Hawke's" castle, ha ha ha :)

Eventually, we discovered The Throne of Bloodstone. And we thought, "Ok, finally, someone has realized that a lot of us have these powerful characters that need to be challenged!" and we played it.

Of the seven high level guys that went into that module, only 4 made it out alive, but we did indeed defeat Orcus, and through Wish spells, we even recovered the three dead guys, although they each lost 3 levels as a result of having to be brought back in that manner.

When skills and powers came out, we re-made the high level guys again, and this time, they were very streamlined. Of course, that was 1995 or so, and we were all in our mid-20's, and we realized that some of the stuff we had attained was unfair or unbalanced, so we stripped the high level guys down to what we called "bare bones;" We put them back to 15th level (again!), re-rolled their hit points in front of witnesses (there was a big debate about 2 of the characters, who always seemed to have close to maximum hit points) and took every magic item away from them, including the artifacts. They all had the finest, non-magical armor and swords that money could buy, but none of them had ANY magic whatsoever. Not even a potion.

Then we took their money, and divided it by 10. Believe me when I say, they were still enormously wealthy, even after that.

After that, we started playing again, and the only magic items we had were the random loot we got from adventuring. Even so, it didn't take long for us to acquire some really nice magic items, and reach 20th level AGAIN. Ha ha ha.

At this point, we still wanted to play the high level guys, but by now, that original group of 10 guys had dwindled down to 6, and changes were coming (people getting married / moving away / etc.) and it wouldn't be long before the 6 were down to zero. But during this "dwindle down" era, we did make 2e S&P rules for characters up to 30th level, and we used those to keep playing the high level guys. Some of us multi-classed, and in those days, that meant you couldn't use your old class powers until your new class level exceeded the original class level by 1. So the 20th level fighter who became a magic-user was just a low-level magic-user with a "bag o' hit points" until he reached 21st level. THEN, THE GLOVES CAME OFF! Ha ha ha ha! Having a 20F/21MU in 2e S&P was AMAZINGLY powerful.

Anyway, by the time the original group of "school buddies" had scattered to the four winds of adulthood, I found myself with two extremely powerful characters. Tellerian Hawke was a 20F/21MU/17T (Basically, a high-level thief who had 5 levels to go before he attained near-godhood, ha ha) and Nimbar The Watcher was a 10R/11C/20MU who was pretty much the "Gandalf" of his day.

So really, before 3rd Edition ever came out, I (and my other school buddies) had amassed many hours of "high level" play. And I just sort of assumed that every other D&D group out there had been through something similar. We still experimented with low level guys, even in the high level heyday, but our high level guys were always in the background, kind of like those old portraits of "the founders" that you see in the lounge room of a typical country club. Our high level guys were the "old guard," the ones who came before, the ones of legend.

And friend, if you haven't experienced that, you're missing out.

The cool thing is, when 3rd Ed came out, and then later the Epic Level Handbook, I took those old characters, and re-tooled them into epic-level NPCs for my campaign. They became the guys that could make that cool magic item for you---provided you could pay, and provided you could locate the components for it---or the ones who might know where to find the lost tomb of Peritropus. Need a research library to design a new spell? Nimbar rented his library by the hour, the day, or the week---provided he wasn't in the middle of his own research.

And then, in the longest continual campaign I've ever ran (1999-ish / 2000 - 2005, during which time we were playing once/week or more with an almost religious fervor) I actually had a group go from 7th level to Epic Levels (average party level 42) through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. They started as "common men," i.e., everyday people who had somehow become locally famous, and those guys went on to become legendary defenders of all of Oerth. (The leader of the party started as Commoner 3 / Warrior 4, and gained 3 more levels in warrior before switching to Fighter. Now, he is Commoner 3 / Warrior 7 / Fighter 22 / Cleric 11!)

Those characters went from my NPC's favorite customers, to becoming their peers! And that was extremely rewarding to see! Especially since they did it "by the book," without having to demote / re-write their characters several times.

The sweetest part is that last November, I put the entire bulk of my old campaign materials online (on a Google Sites page) and have resurrected that campaign into a play-by-post game. It's slow, but it's also like a trip down memory lane, and it keeps the dream alive, so-to-speak.

If you haven't played Epic, you should. I would definitely call it my favorite tier.
 
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Tellerian Hawke

Defender of Oerth
Doh, I just realized this was a 4E thread! Ha ha ha!

Sorry, guys :)

But I think it's still relevant; having the "old guard" around is a really rewarding experience, especially when you realize the effect they've had upon history.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Doh, I just realized this was a 4E thread! Ha ha ha!

Sorry, guys :)

But I think it's still relevant; having the "old guard" around is a really rewarding experience, especially when you realize the effect they've had upon history.

Personally, while I recognize that this is specifically labelled a 4e thread, I think that it's perfectly fine to bring in concepts from other editions and even other games. "Tiers of play" is not a 4e-exclusive concept (any more than roles, or heck even "skill challenge"-like stuff). It's just a concept that 4e looked at and said, "Hey. This is a thing. Most people really do this in real campaigns. We should make it official and explicit."

While your particular experience might not necessarily have been my cup of tea, it certainly sounds like it was a jolly good romp--an appropriately Epic experience for "Epic tier," in different words. But hey, rose, other name, sweet, etc.
 

Jhaelen

First Post
I played AD&D 1st Ed all the way through junior high, high school, and into college. I was always in the same group of about 10 guys, and of those, about 3 of them were DMs. The rest of us were players (only.)

We ran A LOT of characters, some of whom survived, but many of whom did not. But the ones that did survive, session after session, became our favorites, and soon, attained "high level" (20th level) status.
This is something I never understood: The first sentence also perfectly describes our group. But the highest level one of my characters ever attained was level 8! Now, granted I was the DM most of the time, but still... The highest level any of my players' characters ever attained was level 11.

With progress becoming so slow and the typical encounter becoming so lethal, there was simply no way to ever survive for long after attaining 'name level' in any of our campaigns.
 

Tellerian Hawke

Defender of Oerth
If you ever played the old SSI series of AD&D computer games, then you have a good idea of what our game sessions were like. :) (Except on tabletop w/ a tac map & miniatures.)
 

If you ever played the old SSI series of AD&D computer games, then you have a good idea of what our game sessions were like. :) (Except on tabletop w/ a tac map & miniatures.)

This is something I never understood: The first sentence also perfectly describes our group. But the highest level one of my characters ever attained was level 8! Now, granted I was the DM most of the time, but still... The highest level any of my players' characters ever attained was level 11.

With progress becoming so slow and the typical encounter becoming so lethal, there was simply no way to ever survive for long after attaining 'name level' in any of our campaigns.

Yeah, every group is different. I played in a bunch of games early on that were what we called 'Monty Haul' back in those days. Characters were all 20th level this or that and had crazy ridiculous stuff. I think it was around the early-mid 80's when that died down. We went on to play some more interesting characters in more carefully crafted campaigns. None of them hit 20th level that I can recall, but they were a lot more fun in some respects because it was a lot tougher going and the stories were more involved.

Still, the original characters were kinda fun too. It was just a very gonzo sort of game. In fact 4e's Epic Tier is kinda both gonzo and sane at the same time, which is cool. You can have some very crazy character concepts but there's still mechanics that work in some sense.
 

Raith5

Adventurer
Doh, I just realized this was a 4E thread! Ha ha ha!

Sorry, guys :)

But I think it's still relevant; having the "old guard" around is a really rewarding experience, especially when you realize the effect they've had upon history.

This reminds me of playing a high level/epic 1e campaign in my teens where each Sunday I would meet with a friend of mine and we would attack a randomly selected demon lord and steal its stuff. I was a ridiculously over the top monty hall campaign where our characters did random things like built a massive tower in the vault of the drow and stuff like that.

There is a certain symmetry though with my ongoing 4e campaign where we are taking on demon lords and gods (Orcus is next on our list) - though the story driving is far more complex and serious, not to mention mechanically proper and restrained than my old 1e campaign.
 

Tellerian Hawke

Defender of Oerth
Back in those days, I wouldn't call our game so much "Monty Haul," as I would simply "improperly balanced." No one was ever given anything (with the exception of the first level characters I mentioned, ha ha) but we probably got too many "special, storyline xp awards," and we probably didn't enforce all the rules evenly. For instance, I don't remember the Abyss being any different from the Prime, with the exception of the hordes of demons roaming around. Planar effects were virtually unknown to us. And we probably didn't work as hard as we should have for the artifacts. But we were good, solid players, and we took precautions, and played well, embracing the storyline, and acting heroically, etc. We were simply inexperienced at high level play, thus, it was probably only about 75% as hard as it should have been. But we always gladly accepted whatever challenge the DM threw at us.

P.S. However, I can say that it was never about "being the baddest," or "having the most treasure / artifacts / etc.," hence our willingness to strip their items from them once we figured out that they were unbalanced. We were always concerned about playing the game "correctly," we just weren't experts at it initially; it took years of gameplay and maturity to arrive at the place where we are now, i.e., practically experts at game design / game mechanics. :)
 
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