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OSR Must OSR = Deadly?

Sacrosanct

Legend
While it's true every table played a bit different, and thus we all have slightly different definitions of what OSR is, I think there are some common aspects:

1 mechanically more lethal. Save or die, level drains, fewer hit points, etc

2 slower level progression. Name level was 9th level and it took a lot of xp to get there unless you were playing monty haul.

3 zero to hero was default

4 rather than depend on your character sheet powers, you utilized the environment around you more. How can objects and tools help you?

5 player skill was a thing, and mattered, for better or worse.

6 the world was a living world. Monsters lived where they lived. Encounters weren't tailored or balanced to party level and count. A 4th level PC would be with a 6th level PC as commonplace.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
While it's true every table played a bit different, and thus we all have slightly different definitions of what OSR is, I think there are some common aspects:

1 mechanically more lethal. Save or die, level drains, fewer hit points, etc

2 slower level progression. Name level was 9th level and it took a lot of xp to get there unless you were playing monty haul.

3 zero to hero was default

4 rather than depend on your character sheet powers, you utilized the environment around you more. How can objects and tools help you?

5 player skill was a thing, and mattered, for better or worse.

6 the world was a living world. Monsters lived where they lived. Encounters weren't tailored or balanced to party level and count. A 4th level PC would be with a 6th level PC as commonplace.

Pretty much and xp points matter.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Yeah you kinda need to invent new rules or ways to use existing ones.

Replace 5E energy drain with exhaustion levels for example.
even "deadly if you expect to faceroll through stuff but lots of magic gear" is tough because there is no longer any depth to equipment or "we are using the old rest/recovery from 3.5 or whatever" is needlessly difficult because different classes are trictly balanced around certain rest schedules being enforced & break down badly if you deviate
 

Zardnaar

Legend
even "deadly if you expect to faceroll through stuff but lots of magic gear" is tough because there is no longer any depth to equipment or "we are using the old rest/recovery from 3.5 or whatever" is needlessly difficult because different classes are trictly balanced around certain rest schedules being enforced & break down badly if you deviate

Yeah I'm more likely to steal the 5E engine and use it to Clone a game plugging in whatever from 3E onwards than try to do OSR with 5E.
 

I guess maybe I forgot how we made it survivable back in the day? Even looking at the original books I used, running them today would be death to all characters.
Maybe the players played differently? Just a guess. I know we did. We touched everything with 10' poles. Rarely, if ever, just charged into a battle. And definitely held off to the last minute to use spells.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Maybe the players played differently? Just a guess. I know we did. We touched everything with 10' poles. Rarely, if ever, just charged into a battle. And definitely held off to the last minute to use spells.
Looking through old modules, to me combat was what happened when you failed to properly assess the encounter. Modern games tend to expect you want to engage in combat (or trip the trap or whatnot), not avoid it.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Looking through old modules, to me combat was what happened when you failed to properly assess the encounter. Modern games tend to expect you want to engage in combat (or trip the trap or whatnot), not avoid it.

I think thats a more modern take.

We played it as kick in the door but mostly played 2E and B/X. DM houseruled out the xp for gp part though.

One year to get to level 4.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Looking through old modules, to me combat was what happened when you failed to properly assess the encounter. Modern games tend to expect you want to engage in combat (or trip the trap or whatnot), not avoid it.
Even if the fight is with something powerful enough to have potential deadly outcomes (different from 5e's "loldeadly" encounter) there is likely very little distance between "we can fight this the whole session bro" and "wow I didn't expect so many of you to die so quick!". In the past, the recovery mechanics made any fight something that would add up & take a toll that you couldn't just shrug off

edit: Like @Zardnaar I also remember a lot of kick in the door, just the cleric wasn't about to load all their spell slots with healing spells to cover stupidity & that wand or two they had stashed away were for emergencies or really bad luck not for you to solo near the party like leroy jenkins or ignore the strategy pused by relevant controller/debuffer/etc
 

I played Basic D&D when I was 10 years old and I play Basic (B/X and OSR retro clone equivalents) now as a 40+ year old.

There is an enormous difference when we played as kids to how I play it now. Now, revisiting the rules as an adult and playing them as intended creates a much different experience than the more kick down the door way we played as kids... although to be fair, that was a long time ago, but I mostly just remember fighting monsters.

I know it is just anecdotal, but myself, as an adult playing old school games, I just have never seen the arbitrary deadliness that so many people claim occurs in old school D&D.

I recently ran a weekly OSR Meetup game. We played Basic Fantasy RPG by the book in a megadungeon.

Basic Fantasy is an retro-clone based off B/X (1981 edition Basic set). It has a slightly different attack progression and thief skill table and some differences in spell descriptions, but it is for all intents and purposes equivalent to B/X (certainly in terms of deadliness).

In about a year and a half of weekly play, I had a total of about 24 players join in and play. Some were regulars, some came and went, some popped in once and a while. I had between 6 to 8 players every night. We started at 1st level max hit points. Some players had henchmen, most did not, though.

The regular players started hitting 3rd and 4th level after about 10 months of playing.

I had about a half dozen or so character deaths and about the same number of henchmen deaths. I had little Death Certificates that I had players fill out when their character died. When a player's character dies, they roll up a new 1st level character and join in as soon as they are done.

I used standard B/X style dungeon exploration rules... including wandering monsters, resting after 5 turns, reactions, and morale. The players tended to be cautious but threw down when needed.

Of the six or so character deaths, pretty much the majority were due to a poor player choice or decision. Some of the deaths that I remember:
  • Player had their character run into a crypt and close the door behind him (before checking contents) Eaten by the zombies that resided within the crypt.
  • Player ran away from a monster, in the dark, through an unexplored passageway... fell into a spiked pit trap and died.
  • Player asked their henchman barbarian with a great axe (his PC was a thief), to swing at the Stirge attached to him. Henchman missed the Stirge but hit the PC killing it instantly.
  • Fighting against giant scorpians. The 1st level dwarf stayed in the back and used crossbow. Then decided to charge to the front line. The mighty dwarf killed one scorpian but the second stung him and he failed the poison save and died instantly.
  • Player charged head first against ghouls and got paralyzed and eaten.

Pretty much most deaths were due to a poor move. In all, I'd say the game was not at all deadly. Certainly not to the level that many people say. Players who were smart made good choices were able to have their characters survive.

Old school D&D doesn't necessarily have to be the arbitrary death fests that many people claim it to be.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Two things I haven't yet seen mentioned:

1 In OSR combat is generally a lot swingier than in 4e-5e mostly because most of the foes have fewer hit points relative to everyone's damage output, but while those foes last they can still really bring the pain to the PCs. As a pleasant side effect, those combats for the same reason are also often shorter.

2 In OSR expect a much slower pace of play: way more time spent scouting and searching and sneaking and generally being careful. If you try to play OSR like it's 4e or 5e you'll get lots of opportunities to try out the system's char-gen method. :)
 

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