OSR Must OSR = Deadly?

[Snarf Zagyg]

Now that is truly terrifying!

After posting it, I realized that referent passed away before 3e was even released, which means that there is a small and dwindling audience for that particular joke.

 

[Mannahnin]

OSR does not necessarily equal deadly, but mechanically it's quite likely unless you keep the monster numbers relatively low, use Reaction rolls to reduce the number of automatically-hostile encounters, and make more treasure available than you're probably used to (unless you're experienced with old-school games) to ensure that the PCs level up within a few sessions. Once PCs gain a couple of levels they have a buffer against being killed by one or two lucky attacks from a monster. Other factors which add enormously to PC survivability are them being willing to run from encounters (especially if you use the OD&D or B/X rules for pursuit and dropping treasure or food to deter it), and them employing retainers, henchman, and possibly war dogs as meat shields.

In my old-school B/X / Five Torches Deep mashup open table I've been running this year, I have significantly more forgiving death rules than BX (zero HP isn't automatically dead; if you get bandaged or healed within a minute you get a roll on a chart with a small chance of being dead), and over 50ish sessions so far this year, I've had I think 3 PC deaths out of about a dozen active PCs, but they've had more than thirty dead hirelings and retainers (their chart is less forgiving).

 

[kenada]

I am running a game in Swords and Wizardry and playing in a game in Old School Essentials, both games in the OSR movement. A common feature in both is "things are really hard."

In S&W if the party's magic-user wins Initiative, he can cast Sleep and pretty much take out an entire small dungeon complex. If he loses Initiative, an enemy spellcaster can do the exact same thing - or otherwise the group is surrounded and chopped down pretty quickly.

Our OSE game is a dungeon crawl that sees us make (literally) 40 feet of progress in the dungeon each weekly session before needing to turn back after facing impossible odds. The previous session was stirges we couldn't scare off with torches that killed two party members; this week was three lizardmen who were in a barbaric rage that we couldn't sneak past or reason with.

This isn't the style of game I remember playing back in the 80s and 90s. If it was like this, we'd have never made it to 2nd level.

What gives now? Is the entire OSR movement just for bragging rights for grognards? Is there some in-between system (between OSR and 5e) that is rules-lite, fun, and fast-paced?

The way you describe things, it sounds like you’re having encounters rather than just encountering something in the dungeon. Did you get any chance to talk to them or retreat, or did a fight immediately break out?

I’m prepping to run OSE for the first time, and the thing that really leapt out at me coming from modern games is that the encounter procedure does not assume a fight happens. You’re expected to allow the PCs a chance to parley, retreat, or do something else (which can include combat).

Not every monster is going to be willing to negotiate or chat, but I feel like having every encounter with creatures be a fight is also not in the spirit of what the system intends. Especially if you’re in a megadungeon, PCs need the opportunity to interact with the factions (so you can play them against each other, etc).

You’ve only described two deadly fights here, but you say you are making only limited progress every time you delve into the dungeon. That suggests suggests the problem extends beyond those two fights even if you aren’t losing people every time.

Is this a reasonable take? Have you talked to the group or your GM to see if things are going as everyone expects?

 

[loverdrive]

OSR = no plot armour, and this kinda leads to deadly, but it isn't something mandatory.

 

[Retreater]

The way you describe things, it sounds like you’re having encounters rather than just encountering something in the dungeon. Did you get any chance to talk to them or retreat, or did a fight immediately break out?

I’m prepping to run OSE for the first time, and the thing that really leapt out at me coming from modern games is that the encounter procedure does not assume a fight happens. You’re expected to allow the PCs a chance to parley, retreat, or do something else (which can include combat).

Not every monster is going to be willing to negotiate or chat, but I feel like having every encounter with creatures be a fight is also not in the spirit of what the system intends. Especially if you’re in a megadungeon, PCs need the opportunity to interact with the factions (so you can play them against each other, etc).

You’ve only described two deadly fights here, but you say you are making only limited progress every time you delve into the dungeon. That suggests suggests the problem extends beyond those two fights even if you aren’t losing people every time.

Is this a reasonable take? Have you talked to the group or your GM to see if things are going as everyone expects?

In my Swords and Wizardry game I'm running, the party takes a lot of time scouting the environment and assessing the challenges. They do tend to strike quick when they have the upper hand, but a few encounters have been avoided using role-playing.
In the OSE game (in which I'm a player) it's mostly combats against unintelligent opponents or ones that are so corrupt as to be unable to be persuaded. Every enemy fights to the death and attacks on sight. The pace is definitely off.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I laughed when I saw this and it is still absurd. Nice work. Wtaf?!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I laughed when I saw this and it is still absurd. Nice work. Wtaf?!

As Sir Jack of Tripper will tell you, “Watch out. Roper is gonna get ya.”

 

[Warpiglet-7]

As Sir Jack of Tripper will tell you, “Watch out. Roper is gonna get ya.”

Disturbing! The way to defeat the roper is to have its mate become amorous and it will be at a -4

 

[Remathilis]

I grew up in the 90's era D&D (2nd edition and BECMI) which was far more lethal than WotC era editions but had already drifted from the 70's notion of "expendable characters tossed at the dungeon" that most OSR movements aim to emulate. By the late 90s, a lot of our house rules looked very similar to what 3e and beyond would look like (lax race/class restrictions, no level limits, Max starting hp, resting restored most/all hp and spells, etc).

One thing I would love to see (and excuse me if it exists but I am unaware of it) would be some marriage of OSR aesthetics to a more modern mechanical system. Most OSR seems to want to grab the B/X or 1e style of tactical, lethal play that calls to the classic meat-grinders like ToH or KotB. It would be interesting to see someone do a take on how 2e tried to present the game (you are the protagonists in a fantasy story) but without the later gonzo of 3e and on (ubiquitous magic, strange races, post-medieval tech).

 

[Retreater]

I grew up in the 90's era D&D (2nd edition and BECMI) which was far more lethal than WotC era editions but had already drifted from the 70's notion of "expendable characters tossed at the dungeon" that most OSR movements aim to emulate. By the late 90s, a lot of our house rules looked very similar to what 3e and beyond would look like (lax race/class restrictions, no level limits, Max starting hp, resting restored most/all hp and spells, etc).

One thing I would love to see (and excuse me if it exists but I am unaware of it) would be some marriage of OSR aesthetics to a more modern mechanical system. Most OSR seems to want to grab the B/X or 1e style of tactical, lethal play that calls to the classic meat-grinders like ToH or KotB. It would be interesting to see someone do a take on how 2e tried to present the game (you are the protagonists in a fantasy story) but without the later gonzo of 3e and on (ubiquitous magic, strange races, post-medieval tech).

I also came in with 2nd edition AD&D. Very different from WotC-era games, as you said, but also different in the expectations of OSR. We regularly had characters live for entire campaigns, which would last until 8-9th level. Occasional character deaths would happen, but usually they would be rare and memorable.