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D&D 5E artificer initiate, fey touched and shadow touched vs magic initiate and spell slots

Shadow touched especially does not have a lot of good 1st-level options.
Inflict Wounds is possibly the best available option, especially for a sorcerer with Distant Spell metamagic. Obviously clerics get that anyway, so they have no good options for Shadow Touched.
Artificer initiate though has spells like absorb elements and caustic brew that will be go-to spells for a cleric or other spell user and that can be upcast.
Magic Stone, Faerie Fire and Catapult aren't bad. IMO Caustic Brew is rubbish, and Absorb Elements rather situational.
 
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Horwath

Legend
I noticed that too when reading Tasha's list of feats.

However, from a balance perspective, if you consider to allow for Magic Initiates to use their spell slots for the chosen 1st-level spell, one must consider the ramifications of adding any one bard, cleric, druid, warlock, wizard, sorcerer spell to your class without multiclassing, since all the other feat choices binds the selection to either a couple of schools (illusion/necromancy, divination/enchantment or a class (artificer).

I am fine with that in my games. I think Magic Initiate has a more universal 'pick-a-spell' role than the other more themed feats.

Even with this MI is worse than Shadow/Fey touched, as latter feats are half-feats.
Artificer initiate is also a bad full-feat.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
This clause about using slots is not in the old magic initiate feat and it makes that feat significantly inferior to these.
It's the biggest problem with Tasha's and more books to come. Features in the new books, to compete with favorites in prior books, generally tend to be more powerful as they are designed. A perfect example is comparing Eyes of the Dark (XGtE Shadow Magic Sorcerer)

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to Eyes of Night (TCoE Twilight Domain Cleric)
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So, 300 feet darkvision vs. 120! Talk about a power boost! Not only that, but you can share 300 feet of darkvision with up to 5 people. Sure, it is only for an hour, but that is often enough if you need it, and you can always do it again by sacking a level 1 slot.

So, Eyes of Night is vastly more powerful than Eyes of the Dark. Again, just another example of later books having more and more poweful features than earlier ones. :(
 

jgsugden

Legend
Many people have taken these feats, enjoyed having them, and do not regret having them. As enjoying the game is the goal - they're fine as is. No need to change.

Do I think they'd have designed them differently if they knew as much as they do now when designing them? Yes. But it is not essential to change them.
 

nogray

Adventurer
It's the biggest problem with Tasha's and more books to come. Features in the new books, to compete with favorites in prior books, generally tend to be more powerful as they are designed. A perfect example is comparing Eyes of the Dark (XGtE Shadow Magic Sorcerer) ...
to Eyes of Night (TCoE Twilight Domain Cleric) ...
So, 300 feet darkvision vs. 120! Talk about a power boost! Not only that, but you can share 300 feet of darkvision with up to 5 people. Sure, it is only for an hour, but that is often enough if you need it, and you can always do it again by sacking a level 1 slot.

So, Eyes of Night is vastly more powerful than Eyes of the Dark. Again, just another example of later books having more and more poweful features than earlier ones. :(
I don't know that I agree that Eyes of Night is distinctly more powerful than Eyes of the Dark. At first and second level, sure: Night beats the Dark hands-down. At 3rd+, though, Eyes of the Dark is adding an extra spell known to the Sorcerer (a really nice feature), and it is also adding something very useful and vanishingly rare: the ability to make magical darkness that you can see through.

Both features fit the roles of the classes: Eyes of the Dark is a more "selfish" feature that boosts the performance of the Sorcerer and impedes the enemies in a non-party-friendly way, while Eyes of Night is a more defensive/support feature, allowing clerics to alleviate night-blindness (or facilitate a party-on-monster ambush by letting the whole party outrange the darkvision of pretty much any opposition). Borrowing terminology from 4e, Eyes of Night is a more leader-like feature, while Eyes of the Dark is more befitting a striker (or controller).

In a close-quarters environment (many dungeons), the ranges are pretty much a wash, as both outrange the nominal 60 ft darkvision, and as there may be no places in the dungeon with eye-lines (much) longer than that 60-120 ft. The distinction, there, is share-ability vs. the darkness spell and the ability to see through that darkness. That's a much closer race, and one I wouldn't want to call unless I knew the character's party and objective. For example, if the party-member with this feature is the only one without any darkvision of their own, the value of the sharing part of Night is greatly diminished. If there is a Warlock in the party with either Devil's Sight or an Imp familiar, Eyes of the Dark's value goes up considerably (a second character able to see through your magical darkness is twice as nice).

Anyhow, just food for thought. :)
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I don't know that I agree that Eyes of Night is distinctly more powerful than Eyes of the Dark. At first and second level, sure: Night beats the Dark hands-down. At 3rd+, though, Eyes of the Dark is adding an extra spell known to the Sorcerer (a really nice feature), and it is also adding something very useful and vanishingly rare: the ability to make magical darkness that you can see through.

Both features fit the roles of the classes: Eyes of the Dark is a more "selfish" feature that boosts the performance of the Sorcerer and impedes the enemies in a non-party-friendly way, while Eyes of Night is a more defensive/support feature, allowing clerics to alleviate night-blindness (or facilitate a party-on-monster ambush by letting the whole party outrange the darkvision of pretty much any opposition). Borrowing terminology from 4e, Eyes of Night is a more leader-like feature, while Eyes of the Dark is more befitting a striker (or controller).

In a close-quarters environment (many dungeons), the ranges are pretty much a wash, as both outrange the nominal 60 ft darkvision, and as there may be no places in the dungeon with eye-lines (much) longer than that 60-120 ft. The distinction, there, is share-ability vs. the darkness spell and the ability to see through that darkness. That's a much closer race, and one I wouldn't want to call unless I knew the character's party and objective. For example, if the party-member with this feature is the only one without any darkvision of their own, the value of the sharing part of Night is greatly diminished. If there is a Warlock in the party with either Devil's Sight or an Imp familiar, Eyes of the Dark's value goes up considerably (a second character able to see through your magical darkness is twice as nice).

Anyhow, just food for thought. :)
I don't think Eyes of Night are crazy OP compared to Eyes of the Dark, but it is stronger as I see it.

For example, a player wanted to play a Twilight Domain cleric for our Frostmaiden game I began a couple months ago. When I saw the 300 foot range, I said forget it. 120 feet would be fine, but 300? NO WAY! Most of our game has a had a lot of outdoor encounter in either the brief hours of dim light or the hours of darkness. With 300 feet, you have an insane advantage in such situations of seeing your potential foes before they see you.

It would have been balanced between the two to have Eyes of Night have a 120-foot range instead of 300--then it would be closer to balanced IMO.

I agree underground or in buildings at night, the range is not a factor for the most part. But either way my point stands (at it has always been thus, not just a 5E thing...) when later books come out, features tend to be more powerful than earlier features to make them more attractive for people to want to play. I get it, it hooks players into buying stuff-and that is most important to WoTC (don't blame them, it is a company after all...).
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Didn’t JC clarify that this is technically how MI works, because you learn the spell and you can cast any spell you have learned with spell slots?

Like, an ability that doesn’t say you “learn” or “know” the spell it grants, doesn’t work with slots, but if you know the spell, you can cast it with a slot.

The only restriction on MI is that when you cast it without a slot 1/LR, you cannot upcast it.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Not quite. They've added how it works in the sage advice compendium. It's a little convoluted but basically it needs to be from your class and follow your spellcasting feature.
 

auburn2

Adventurer
Inflict Wounds is possibly the best available option, especially for a sorcerer with Distant Spell metamagic. Obviously clerics get that anyway, so they have no good options for Shadow Touched.

Magic Stone, Faerie Fire and Catapult aren't bad. IMO Caustic Brew is rubbish, and Absorb Elements rather situational.
I am not a huge fan of inflict wounds. It is about 16-17 points of damage on average with a hit roll. At low levels that is really good, albeit for use of a very valuable once-a-day slot. At higher levels it is not enough to be worthwhile. It is the kind of spell I would not bother preparing above 4th level. Being able to deliver it ranged or with a familiar helps some. I think false life is a better spell for shadow touched, but still not great.

I like caustic brew because it can hit mutliple creatures it takes an action to wash off, and they do not get a save to free themselves every turn. Damage isn't super but it is a first level spell and will continue damaging every turn.

I have never been a fan of catapult or magic stone. I think Faerie fire is good to have but situational. Most of the time I use it is when someone is invisible or hidden. So I essentially use it as a cheap version of trueseeing moreso than something to gain advantage.

I think absorb elements is a must have for a wizard, and good for just about any class to better survive that enemy fireball. I agree it is situational, but when you are in that situation it is really good to have. The nice thing about getting it in artificiar initiate is if you are a caster from another class that means you have it on hand without worrying about it sucking up a prepared or known spell slot. If your fighter has it then it also makes fraging him with an AOE spell while he is surrounded with enemies a more viable option - he is going to take half or quarter damage and then dish out more damage on his next hit.
 
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I am not a huge fan of inflict wounds. It is about 16-17 points of damage on average with a hit roll. At low levels that is really good, albeit for use of a very valuable once-a-day slot. At higher levels it is not enough to be worthwhile. It is the kind of spell I would not bother preparing above 4th level. Being able to deliver it ranged or with a familiar helps some. I think false life is a better spell for shadow touched, but still not great.
Yes, Inflict Wounds is great with distant spell or with a familiar/homunculus. It's damage also scales better when upcast than any other 1st level spell, making it great for sorcerers, who with a limited spell selection don't always have a higher level spell. It also benefits from alchemist bonus damage. And it's not on the sorcerer/artificer spell list by default.

If you want False Life you can cast it as often as you like for free with the Eldritch Adept Feat.
I like caustic brew because it can hit mutliple creatures it takes an action to wash off, and they do not get a save to free themselves every turn. Damage isn't super but it is a first level spell and will continue damaging every turn.
Caustic Brew is rubbish. It's AoE is small, it's damage is trivial, and worst of all it does nothing at all on a successful save. And double worst of all it requires concentration. An Alchemist, Artillerist or black draconic bloodline sorcerer can improve the damage, but it's on their spell lists anyway so the don't need to use a feat to pick it up.
I have never been a fan of catapult or magic stone. I think Faerie fire is good to have but situational. Most of the time I use it is when someone is invisible or hidden. So I essentially use it as a cheap version of trueseeing moreso than something to gain advantage.
Thing about catapult is very few enemies are resistant to magical bludgeoning damage. It should also be pretty much always possible to hit at least two targets. On it's own the Magic Stone cantrip scales very poorly with level, however once you start loading it into a sling you can do things like sneak attack with it. You can also give them to the dumb-ass barbarian with no decent ranged attacks. I find faerie fire one of the most used spells in our game. Open with it on a group and give everyone advantage against at least some of them.
I think absorb elements is a must have for a wizard, and good for just about any class to better survive that enemy fireball. I agree it is situational, but when you are in that situation it is really good to have. The nice thing about getting it in artificiar initiate is if you are a caster from another class that means you have it on hand without worrying about it sucking up a prepared or known spell slot. If your fighter has it then it also makes fraging him with an AOE spell while he is surrounded with enemies a more viable option - he is going to take half or quarter damage and then dish out more damage on his next hit.
Absorb Elements is a class spell for pretty much anyone who would want it. And only sorcerers benefit much from having more spells available. I can't see a fighter wanting to burn a feat for a situational once per day ability, and most EKs pick it up as one of their "must be abjuration or evocation" spells. It is good for ATs though, especially since it comes bundled with magic stone. On the whole I think ATs benefit most from Artificer Initiate.
 
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