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D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Young adult fiction came up earlier, and was just looking up Moldvay basic for another thread. This is from the page headed "Inspirational Source Material".

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Lovecraft does appear among the list of 34 adult fantasy authors listed with book titles. (Another 22 are listed without titles).
 

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1. But ... you are advocating piracy. If you cannot obtain a copy legally, then you are obtaining it ... there is a word for this, and it means "not legally."

I'm not saying people should pirate it, but I think the fear of something just disappearing forever is at a certain level overblown.

2. Not everything is available illegally. Some people have archives, sometimes they are available, and sometimes they aren't. The best way to ensure something remains available is to allow the rights-holder to continue to make it available.

3. These are not exactly high-profit products. Again, we always think of it as "pure profit," but they still have to pay for stuff. When it comes to legacy (long-tail) products, it makes more sense to think of them as low margin.

4. Finally, this just circles back to the original question which is being ducked. Okay, GAZ10 is really really bad. And OA. And Ravenloft. And stuff with the Drop (remember Community). And don't forget the misogyny and sexism, so probably can't have the 1e DMG. The various monster books, and the Monster Manual (1e). Oh no... did you know that they statted up the actual gods of people's religions" There goes the OD&D supplement, and Deities & Demigods (Legends & Lore). And so on.

Then why not let them do disclaimers and an article series and maybe link a few to different charities? To me, it seems that doing something proactively is way easier and way more likely to satisfy and defuse any sort of momentum that can be gathered. Instead if you let it fester, you are more likely to have people build up with the people who simply want that stuff gone and what's the likelihood that WOTC just takes the maximalist approach at that point?

Again, I just simply disagree with you completely on this. Lots of things are products of their time- you are welcome to agitate for banning, removal, or de-profting (or some other variation of that), and I will oppose you, just as I opposed the people in the 80s, 90s, and 00s who tried to pressure private companies into removing positive depictions of gay (and later trans/queer) people.

It's a principle- and to me, this is as wrong now, as it was then.

I just don't see the comparison. Not all advocacy is equal to me, and I don't think it's bad to push Wizards to donate a very small amount of money to cash for what would likely be an easy PR stunt. It's not like they are losing massive amounts of cash here, and they get trust with it. And this doesn't involve any sort of loss of history, but rather just putting the money towards helping right the wrongs of the past.

Yes, you are right. Disclaimers ARE the easiest part.

That's why they did it. That is exactly what I was saying. They can put up blanket disclaimers with ease. But it's like anything else- they do not exist to serve you. Hasbro isn't in the business of having shareholder meetings and saying, "So, out of the goodness of our heat, we are entering into a giant controversy and losing money in order to educate people, even though this is just for our old products that most of our current customers DON'T CARE ABOUT since it has nothing to do with 5e. You're welcome!"

I didn't say they existed to serve me, but okay man. Advocacy is advocacy. They've already had problems with racism and community members in the past; it would seem better to take a proactive stance and use the past as a good teaching tool for the future. To me, the disclaimers are the minimum. If you're comfortable with that, cool.

I agree that what the OP did was great. Wonderful analysis. Spot on.

Now, the OP should continue the work. Maybe, with even more examples, the OP can publish it. That's how this normally works. Companies aren't doing academic works on their old products. The only, very very rare exception is a product that is both incredibly problematic, incredibly popular, and incredibly profitable- like the 4 minute disclaimer that now is added to Gone With the Wind, which is a film studies professor explaining that while it is uncomfortable, it is important that classic Hollywood films are available to us in their original form for viewing and discussion."

This isn't that.

No, but their collection as a whole? Much closer. The idea isn't just tied to GAZ10, but meant as something to be examined across the line. If you don't believe in that, fine. I don't see the harm in advocating for it.

We improve with the stuff we are releasing today, as I keep saying.

I mean, we're at declaring Volo a racist, so I guess that's an improvement.

Woah. Look, this is the worst point made. The mistakes we make today aren't the ones from GAZ10. Those are easy to see.

No, the ones we would need to learn from and understand are the ones that would be painful to acknowledge, and that we have been making in the last ten years.

But that's hard, and not nearly as easy to feel good about.

No, what you're talking about is what we are already doing: no one really looks back because it's hard and no one wants to acknowledge, and then we just keep running into the same problems because we've never really reckoned with the early, easy stuff. The whole point in going back to the old stuff is that it is easy, which means it's easier to go through, accept, create the framework to move forward through. Like, if you have no starting place, where do you move forward from?

Because you can't just move forward from the present when you haven't even looked at the mistakes of the past.

And for me, this is about seeing people who had power using it to make sure that marginalized communities didn't get the information and representation that they needed. And the way that they were fought was because you could point to principles- they didn't always work, but even when the times were darkest, those were the values you could lean on.

And I am not going to discard those values simply because I now find it convenient to silence people I don't like. Because I had that happen to me and people I cared about. And for me, it's wrong, even when you think you are doing it for the right reasons.

I respect the principle, at the least.
 

Mercurius

Legend
Inherent problem in fisking everything is trying to hold multiple conversations with people.
I think you mean the other way around? Haha.
I think you can be more specific (in covering the problems, that is, and I'm speaking in the general "you" and not literally you). The thing doesn't need to be 8 pages, but I think you can cover a decent amount of ground in a few paragraphs.
But what's wrong with a general disclaimer, then supported by an article or two that offer a perspective on specifics? Being more specific about every single disclaimer both has an element of proselytizing, and also opens a ton of cans of worms.

I mean maybe you're right, and that's just the direction we need to go in. Open up the can, and try to sort it all out; have the conversation. I mean, that's happening already. But more specifically, how much does WotC need to be involved?
I think it would be helpful to Wizards to put articles up, but make them be from people who understand this stuff. I don't think you need Jeremy Crawford putting out VLogs, but people who have experienced these feelings over the years. To me, I think you have to lead the community, and I think that's a great way to do it.
OK, I'm fine with it, although I can easily see how this could go wrong, so I would "handle it with care." Meaning, be sure not to be too heavy-handed on "OneTrueInterpretation."
I don't think that utilitarian argument works at this point: the horse is out of the barn and across the county. Those arguments have been ongoing for a while now, and given their direction, they're better off making their stance clearer and more helpful than to stay silent and try to please both sides (and likely pleasing none). Like, clearly they want to say that all Drow aren't biologically evil now; you already created the errata for it, so you're already ripping off the bandaid, right? Same with Orcs and a bunch of other things. I think it's better for them to own the arguments rather than let the different communities project an answer, because I don't think either will like non-committal silence.
But here's the thing: If you make the statement, "All Drow aren't biologically evil now" (not that they ever were) and add something like, "and depicting them as such is wrong," you potentially upset people who like their drow all-evil, all-the-time. We get into issues like, "To what degree does fantasy have to reflect real life? Do fantasy races have to relate to real world ethnicities, and if so, why?" Etc, etc.

Rather, I'd like to see them take the approach of, "We are presenting an array of Drow options, but feel free to make of them what you want. In some campaign worlds, drow are depicted as generally evil, while in others they run a wider range."

Meaning, I think WotC should take the approach of a big umbrella, saying, "We provide the blocks - and we're going to give you a wider range of them now, but it is up to you to decide how you put them together, and we're not going to suggest one way is right and another wrong, but provide examples of various configurations of blocks." Then they can use the setting books to offer different flavors of D&D. You can have traditional drow in Greyhawk, but Crystal Lavender Fairy Drow in a new setting. And yes, I think you can depict traditional drow (or orcs) without connecting them to the real world.

By "owning the answer," are we asking WotC to dictate the right way to play the game, and giving up our own authority to do so? Doesn't D&D allow for a wide range of approaches, and differents world with different cosmological premises, including, potentially an "evil race?"

But if they instead say, "D&D is a toolbox, a game of fantasy and imagination; no depiction is meant to represent anything in the real world, but only make sense in the context of the game world and provide possibilities for play. The potential for D&D worlds is unlimited - and no single depiction is meant to represent all. All these worlds are yours, do what you will with them. Oh yeah, stay away from Europa."
I dunno if they're asking Wizards to march up to the dude's house, but rather that it'd be a great gesture if he wrote something on the topic.
Sure, but he has to come to that himself.
This made me laugh.
There's no way to enforce self-realization. All you can do is try to educate people and hope they take the last few steps themselves.
Look, I get it. There are instances where (I think) I see something that someone else doesn't see, and I want them to see it. But I have found, time and time again, that as long as I approach it as me trying to educate them, not only do they tend to shut down further (the pragmatic element), but I end up closing off to seeing things in a new way.

So for myself, what I aspire for is sharing my view, but also looking for ways to evolve it. I don't always succeed, but I try to catch myself when I fall into"I get it, they don't, so I need to educate them."

Unless you're a bard.
Ha!
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Raise your hand if you've actually changed your position on these matters in a substantial way within the past... 20 pages or so.
 



Mercurius

Legend
Hey, everyone gets carried away sometimes. I would never claim to be immune.
Yeah, no worries. Me too.
De-platforming has nothing to do with censorship. They are not even remotely the same thing, and linking one to the other is absurd.
Well, I disagree - especially when everything is controlled by private parties. There's no town square, no public commons - at least not in a meaningful way.

But if you consider this idea "absurd," then there's probably not much room for discussion.
There are values that don't deserve a platform. And if it's my platform, then I have not only the right but also, I would argue, the moral imperative, to use that platform responsibly. That means ensuring that nothing I platform does more harm than good. And if I make a mistake, I have a responsibly to correct it.
Sure, I can agree with that, at least if I imagine super extreme cases. But the problem is that we all disagree on what values deserve a platform or not. But to adequately address this topic we'd have to go outside of what is allowed here, so I think we're kind of stuck.
The "hard" sciences are less "hard" than most think, just as the social sciences are "harder" than most give them credit for. Again, objectivity is a myth. There is theoretical physics just as there is quantitative sociological studies.
Yes, I realize that.
And there are certainly fields of academia I disagree with, including within my own field (full disclosure: sociology). But I would never deign to challenge the legitimacy of an entire field of study. I might take exception to certain branches of disciplines, but I again wouldn't outright dismiss a branch of thought outside my own expertise; there are people who are better informed and better positioned to make those arguments than I.
I won't dismiss (almost) anything outright - I'm not suggesting that. I just won't automatically agree with something if it doesn't make sense to me, just because the "experts" are saying it is so. And the experts rarely all agree, unless they're of a specific school of thought (thus my Freud and Jung example). Some academic fields, or at least branches, are strongly ideologically oriented with different underlying premises and assumptions.

Not to mention that a lot of what "expertise" is, is knowledge of a specific field and its literature - not necessarily of the phenomena itself, and it doesn't necessarily correlate with wisdom or innovation. One Buddhist teacher once differentiated between "Buddhologists"--people who know a lot about Buddhism, and "Buddhist practitioners"--those that actually praticed it, and hopefully embodied its teachings.

I'm also reminded of something someone said (can't remember who), that scientific innovations--by their very nature--almost always come from the fringe, from someone thinking outside the box. That's why they're innovative!
 

Mercurius

Legend
Raise your hand if you've actually changed your position on these matters in a substantial way within the past... 20 pages or so.
Is that the only purpose of such discussions, though, to change one's position or someone else's? There's been some good conversations and, if not anyone changing their position, at least coming to greater understanding of each other. That is a good thing, no?
 

But what's wrong with a general disclaimer, then supported by an article or two that offer a perspective on specifics? Being more specific about every single disclaimer both has an element of proselytizing, and also opens a ton of cans of worms.

I mean, there's always the chance you do it badly. But I think there's things you miss if you just be general. Sometimes that stuff is sneaky, y'know? It's a balance you have to find, and talking to some sensitivity readers would probably help.

I mean maybe you're right, and that's just the direction we need to go in. Open up the can, and try to sort it all out; have the conversation. I mean, that's happening already. But more specifically, how much does WotC need to be involved?

I mean, they own the brand. At some level they have to be, right? Hey, here we are, talking hypotheticals.

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OK, I'm fine with it, although I can easily see how this could go wrong, so I would "handle it with care." Meaning, be sure not to be too heavy-handed on "OneTrueInterpretation."

But here's the thing: If you make the statement, "All Drow aren't biologically evil now" (not that they ever were) and add something like, "and depicting them as such is wrong," you potentially upset people who like their drow all-evil, all-the-time. We get into issues like, "To what degree does fantasy have to reflect real life? Do fantasy races have to relate to real world ethnicities, and if so, why?" Etc, etc.

Rather, I'd like to see them take the approach of, "We are presenting an array of Drow options, but feel free to make of them what you want. In some campaign worlds, drow are depicted as generally evil, while in others they run a wider range."

Meaning, I think WotC should take the approach of a big umbrella, saying, "We provide the blocks - and we're going to give you a wider range of them now, but it is up to you to decide how you put them together, and we're not going to suggest one way is right and another wrong, but provide examples of various configurations of blocks." Then they can use the setting books to offer different flavors of D&D. You can have traditional drow in Greyhawk, but Crystal Lavender Fairy Drow in a new setting. And yes, I think you can depict traditional drow (or orcs) without connecting them to the real world.

By "owning the answer," are we asking WotC to dictate the right way to play the game, and giving up our own authority to do so? Doesn't D&D allow for a wide range of approaches, and differents world with different cosmological premises, including, potentially an "evil race?"

But if they instead say, "D&D is a toolbox, a game of fantasy and imagination; no depiction is meant to represent anything in the real world, but only make sense in the context of the game world and provide possibilities for play. The potential for D&D worlds is unlimited - and no single depiction is meant to represent all. All these worlds are yours, do what you will with them. Oh yeah, stay away from Europa."

I mean, yeah, this is largely what I've always wanted. You can't stop someone from having ethnically-coded evil Orcs at their table, but at the least you can guide away those that might inadvertently do it. At the end of the day, teaching people about broad ideas and options is absolutely what I've advocated for in the past.

Sure, but he has to come to that himself.

This made me laugh.

Look, I get it. There are instances where (I think) I see something that someone else doesn't see, and I want them to see it. But I have found, time and time again, that as long as I approach it as me trying to educate them, not only do they tend to shut down further (the pragmatic element), but I end up closing off to seeing things in a new way.

So for myself, what I aspire for is sharing my view, but also looking for ways to evolve it. I don't always succeed, but I try to catch myself when I fall into"I get it, they don't, so I need to educate them."

Again, I think you can give tools for them to use to get there. I think we've gotten pretty far on this in the last two posts alone. You can't enforce someone's opinion, but you can give them ideas and reasons to change it.

Raise your hand if you've actually changed your position on these matters in a substantial way within the past... 20 pages or so.

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But honestly after being touch and go for a little while, we've gotten back to a polite equilibrium. Though you might want to close the thread on a high note.

Gonna be honest, I lost track around the time every post started being 15 paragraphs broken up by quotes.

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But honestly after being touch and go for a little while, we've gotten back to a polite equilibrium. Though you might want to close the thread on a high note.

The half-dozen reports per day the thread creates speaks to how maybe it ain't all that polite.

After 90 pages, if nobody's moving, and the thread's still generating lots of reports, we do start thinking it may be an attractive nuisance. Thus the question.
 

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