D&D 5E What is Quality?

soviet · May 25, 2022

Yeah I was (and remain) in the UK.

My perception is that White Wolf got close to D&D numbers for a time, but yes I don't believe they ever beat it. Even getting close was incredible though. I was at uni at the time and D&D was definitely seen as old fashioned and uncool, at the university RPG society there were loads of white wolf games, a bit of cthulhu and other stuff, and literally only one brief bit of D&D. I know that at the same time my home group D&D campaign was still going on though, and those guys were almost totally unaware of the rest of the hobby. I think there are still great swathes of the D&D fanbase who are totally unaware of other games.

Morrus · May 25, 2022

EzekielRaiden said:
Not gonna lie, "you need to provide links, while I just need to make vague references" doesn't exactly speak well of your position here. But that might just be because I've had personal issues with a family member who makes strong claims and tells me to look it up when I challenge them...and then also tells me to show evidence of my own counterclaims, rather than being willing to look up what I say is common knowledge.

Jeez, dude. If you want to find all the articles right here on this site, they aren't exactly far away. Or ask nicely and I might look them up for you. There's no need to be rude about it.

Hussar · May 26, 2022

Oofta said:
But feel free to disagree. Unless you're telling me that if my opinion is not popular that it is a low quality opinion.

Ahh irony. By your own standard, you admit that your argument is low quality.

hawkeyefan · May 26, 2022

Oofta said:
This isn't about relative quality. Depending on criteria and preference I'm sure there are higher quality TTRPGs, at least for some people that have just never taken off for one reason or another. Multiple things can be quality products.

What games beside D&D 5e would you classify as quality games?

Oofta said:
But feel free to disagree. Unless you're telling me that if my opinion is not popular that it is a low quality opinion.

I don’t think it’s about the popularity of your opinion so much as about how little you’ve said about anything. You think D&D is a quality game because lots of people have purchased it.

If someone asked you why you like 5e, I hope you’d have more to say than a shrug emoji followed by “because it sells well”.

You’ve said almost nothing in this thread.

Warpiglet-7 · May 26, 2022

Full color art
Well edited
Durable materials
Little unnecessary complexity
Clear accessible language
Variety/options

These are some things that would suggest quality to me—-and whether I would like it or not is a question.

I saw someone compare little Caesar’s pizza to low quality…but I don’t know how the cheese is graded or if you give credit for in house made sauce and crust (technically good ingredients). It’s not gourmet but there is some quality there. Whether you like it or not may be immaterial.

Same with 5e. I think it has good production values but I happen to like it a lot too. It surpasses some games in its ingredients but not everyone is gonna like it.

I think the 5e art is on average higher quality than 1e art, but I find 1e more evocative much of the time.

It’s a good game and I love playing it. Someone else’s mileage may surely vary. However, I have no doubt that production values have some correlation with people’s rating and liking of the product.

Hussar · May 26, 2022

The primary issue with this thread is Oofta hasn’t actually defined “quality”. Without specifics it is impossible to discuss.

But I have to admit that I reject the notion that only quantitative differences may be judged objectively. I find that’s too restrictive and discounts experience and expertise.

Eric V · May 26, 2022

Hussar said:
The primary issue with this thread is Oofta hasn’t actually defined “quality”. Without specifics it is impossible to discuss.

But I have to admit that I reject the notion that only quantitative differences may be judged objectively. I find that’s too restrictive and discounts experience and expertise.

Have you read Tom Nichols' book The Death of Expertise?

Hussar · May 26, 2022

Eric V said:
Have you read Tom Nichols' book The Death of Expertise?

No actually. Good read?

Eric V · May 26, 2022

Hussar said:
No actually. Good read?

Very. Tries to examine a lot of the issues you bring up, including the suspicion/derision of experts and their knowledge.

Snarf Zagyg · May 26, 2022

Eric V said:
Very. Tries to examine a lot of the issues you bring up, including the suspicion/derision of experts and their knowledge.

There’s a vast difference between experience, expertise, and objective facts.

1. The fact that experience differs between people and can lead to different conclusions means that when experience leads to different conclusions about something, that thing … is, by definition, subjective.

2. Expertise allows people to draw better conclusions and inferences from facts, but the whole point of having something that is objective is that it can be determined without reference to expertise. And if you don’t understand that distinction, try viewing any trial with dueling experts qualified under Daubert.

Fundamentally, this is just another way of misunderstanding what “objective” means. A person can have an informed and correct opinion that is not objective (can be universally agreed upon because it can be independently measured or verified). It also is not the same as striving for objectivity (such as a journalist or judge).

That said, the Michael Lewis podcast Against the Rules covers the subject of the problems we face due to our loss of trust in expertise in Season 3. Unsurprisingly, even as experts have gotten better at extrapolating from data and making nuanced and more accurate statements, people trust them less.

D&D 5E What is Quality?

soviet

Hero

Morrus

Well, that was fun

Hussar

Legend

hawkeyefan

Legend

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!

Hussar

Legend

Eric V

Hero

Hussar

Legend

Eric V

Hero

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist

Similar Threads