D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

TwoSix said:

There's a few ideas I'm thinking of.

First is what's been discussed here; the idea of "oath magic" wherein some few people who swear with conviction and purpose in their hearts are granted power. No one knows the "source" of this power, no god or divine agent or other powerful being lays claim to being the source. There are various theories that exist in the realm of arcane research, but no one has a definitive answer, least of all these paladins themselves.

Second would be something like Eberron, whereas the characters in the setting will believe in the existence of various gods, but these gods' existence canonically is ambiguous.

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Well, for the first, I would never have/permit that....that an "oath," however heartfelt, just poof gets magical power. "Oath Magic" is not a type of magic that exists in my game/world.

An oath of "conviction and purpose in their hearts," as you say, "are /granted/ power." So it's coming from somewhere. You (the character) don't have to know, or even care, I suppose. No one in the game world has to "prove" where it comes from.

To my thinking, in the case of entities capable of granting "paladin powers/magic" that's gods. In my homebrew, that's solely Lawful gods, to boot. They would WANT the attention/notice. So, for my world/game, I would say something like a god of Valor or Heroes or Defense or some virtuous things would take notice when the paladin is making their oath, to a cause or virtue or promises that that deity would like or respect ...or even just could use for their own purposes someday... and "answer" by way of "empowering" the oath that is made. The paladin, again because /most/ gods in my world would want the credit, would be made aware that "These Powers are brought to you courtesy - and in furtherance - of..." Maybe not. But more than likely, yes.

To the second, that's fine/easy enough. Clerics are getting their power. The mortals have built up their religions, and mythologies, and churches to explain XYZ in their lives. Clerics devote themselves to these religions and churches...and poof they have magic. The gods work in mysterious ways, and all that.... Still, they are taken, in world, by people as "canon" even if they, meta-wise, aren't defined.

But still, the idea that one would manifest divine magical power simply by "belief" is not going to be a legit/satisfactory explanation in my game or world. There is going to be a source behind it, even if the sages can't pin down exactly whence or by whom it comes.

DarkCrisis said:

So, a divine caster like a Cleric, Paladin, Druid etc don't need any actual divine link to power and can just use "The power of my inner belief )or love or friendship or self respect etc) to gain divine powers.

So why would a Warlock ever make a deal with Cthulu or a Fey Princess? Why would a Wizard spend thousands of hours pouring over spell books? They can just "Believe in themselves" hard enough and gain magical power. Cannot a Warlock just make an Oath to himself and gain spells? A Wizard Believe in magic so much he just finds it deep inside (but not like a Sorcerer who is just born with it!)?

Do Bards need colleges? Do Druids need a connection to nature? Do Monks need to train in the martial arts to gain a kamehameha?

Or can they just believe in the friends we made along the way and gain the power of love and self respect?

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This is a topic very relevant to Dragonlance.

During the Age of Mortals (aka the Fifth Age), the world of Krynn was stolen by Takhisis. Without the power of the other gods, mortals were forced to find new magic in the form of the ambient magic of the world. Sorcery (arcane magic) and mysticism (divine magic) became the replacement magic of the setting. Both forms of magic are innate. You don't have to study spellbooks or pray to a god. You just have it.

Where it breaks down thematically is that there's no price to pay for the magic (i.e. fealty to a god or the Test of High Sorcery). Plus, if mortals can have divine magic without the gods, what's the point of the discovery of the gods?

With the War of Souls, the old magic returned and co-existed with the new magic. When the Dragonlance Campaign Setting was being worked on, WotC mandated that the Dragonlance sorcerer be the 3rd edition sorcerer (Thank you, James Wyatt!). A new mystic class was introduced, which was a divine counterpart to the sorcerer with a single, unique domain. Shortly thereafter, WotC introduced the favored soul in Complete Divine, which was mechanically superior.

Fast forward about 20 years. It's 5th edition now, and the sorcerer has a lot more identity and flavor as an innate caster. WotC has retconned the sorcerer in Dragonlance, saying they can join the rechristened Mages of High Sorcery. So even though they get their magic innately, they still have to pay the price of taking the Test.

Which brings us back to the mystic. The cleric currently fills the role of a divine caster who has a single domain. The divine soul sorcerer fills the niche of an innate divine caster.

So anyway, that's a look back on the sorcerer and mystic in Dragonlance. One class has a place in 5e and the other I struggle with.

Just remember, to gain magic, one must pay a price. Raistlin Majere found that out first-hand.

DarkCrisis said:

So, a divine caster like a Cleric, Paladin, Druid etc don't need any actual divine link to power and can just use "The power of my inner belief )or love or friendship or self respect etc) to gain divine powers.

So why would a Warlock ever make a deal with Cthulu or a Fey Princess? Why would a Wizard spend thousands of hours pouring over spell books? They can just "Believe in themselves" hard enough and gain magical power. Cannot a Warlock just make an Oath to himself and gain spells? A Wizard Believe in magic so much he just finds it deep inside (but not like a Sorcerer who is just born with it!)?

Do Bards need colleges? Do Druids need a connection to nature? Do Monks need to train in the martial arts to gain a kamehameha?

Or can they just believe in the friends we made along the way and gain the power of love and self respect?

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faith in oneself is highly overrated; I say tap into the infinite power of the cosmos and let it transfigure you into its likeness

steeldragons said:

But still, the idea that one would manifest divine magical power simply by "belief" is not going to be a legit/satisfactory explanation in my game or world. There is going to be a source behind it, even if the sages can't pin down exactly whence or by whom it comes.

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So here's the deeper, and to my mind, more interesting question.

Let's say that I was the DM, and I said that in my campaign world that divine magical power is explicitly powered by belief. Would that bother you enough to impact your play in my campaign, if you were a player?

Or to generalize a little further, is your belief in the definition of those tropes deep enough that it carries over into other games and settings?

TwoSix said:

So here's the deeper, and to my mind, more interesting question.

Let's say that I was the DM, and I said that in my campaign world that divine magical power is explicitly powered by belief. Would that bother you enough to impact your play in my campaign, if you were a player?

Or to generalize a little further, is your belief in the definition of those tropes deep enough that it carries over into other games and settings?

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Hmmm....I suppose it could. I would say, yes, I am inclined to carry those tropes to other games and settings. If I don't have an understanding of the metaphysics of a setting, then that would certainly curtail my ability, and possibly interest, in joining that game.

Impact my "play," should I decide to join such a game/setting? I doubt it. If anything, I'd probably just steer clear of a "divine" class, and play just fine. haha.

I suppose my question would have to be, what would the character believe - in world? Do I think I just woke up one day and because I begged and pleaded to the sky something happened? Or do I know that if I just really want it to, something happens?...unless sometimes I feel too tired or drained to make it happen. If I'm just "believing in myself," what makes me any different than the sorcerer down the street who can make magic happen on a whim?

So...yeah, there'd be questions on my part, for sure. But I doubt I would summarily refuse to play in a setting using that "conceit." ...But, also, I could understand if others/some people would.

Is that an answer? lol. Feels like I said "yes" and "no."

Dragonhelm said:

Where it breaks down thematically is that there's no price to pay for the magic (i.e. fealty to a god or the Test of High Sorcery). Plus, if mortals can have divine magic without the gods, what's the point of the discovery of the gods?

Just remember, to gain magic, one must pay a price. Raistlin Majere found that out first-hand.

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I tell you, Krynn makes a lot more sense once you realize that most of the 'gods' are ancient, lie-breathing, soul-devouring dragons ...

Yaarel said:

Re Cleric. "Faith" is a 3e thing. In 5e, the divine power source is the Astral Plane, especially the alignment planes.

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Where are you getting that from. This is from the cleric class.

"Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don't grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling."

Zero instances in the cleric class of divine power coming from the astral. When we look at the astral plane in the PHB, zero mentions there of it being the divine power source.

This is from the PHB section on The Weave.

"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power-gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath."

So now we have a little more clarity. Clerics get their divine power from the gods. Druids from the divine power of nature. And paladins from their sacred oath. At no point is the astral plane involved. And the gods give clerical power to............................the super faithful.

This is from the DMG, page 9

"Gods exert influence over the world by granting divine magic to their followers and sending signs and portents to guide them."
Looking at the more detailed information on the astral plane in the DMG, we still have zero instances of it being the source of divine power.

You are inventing stuff here. It's a cool idea that the astral is the source, but that's not the default state in 5e. The default state is that the source of divine power is the gods.

DarkCrisis said:

Heck of a thread resurrection for a dot.

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...

M_Natas said:

That's why the 5e Paladin is conceptionally bad. The powers are cool and fun to play, but narrativly, RAW, just having powers because you have strong convictions is bad.

Like we have magical Power trough Knowledge (Wizards, Bards), Power trough external sources (Cleric, Warlock), a mix if those two (Druid, Ranger), and magical power trough Mutation of Body (Sorcerer).
We also have martial Power which is usually considered through training.

And then we have the Paladin who gains Power trough ... believing in himself...

Which is Bad. The 5e Paladin needs a better narrative.

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The bolded is wrong. Paladins gain no power by believing in themselves. They gain it by faith/belief in the rightness of their oath's tenets. It doesn't require a god, but it does require faith in something outside of themselves.

Maxperson said:

Where are you getting that from. This is from the cleric class.

"Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don't grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling."

Zero instances in the cleric class of divine power coming from the astral. When we look at the astral plane in the PHB, zero mentions there of it being the divine power source.

This is from the PHB section on The Weave.

"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power-gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath."

So now we have a little more clarity. Clerics get their divine power from the gods. Druids from the divine power of nature. And paladins from their sacred oath. At no point is the astral plane involved. And the gods give clerical power to............................the super faithful.

This is from the DMG, page 9

"Gods exert influence over the world by granting divine magic to their followers and sending signs and portents to guide them."
Looking at the more detailed information on the astral plane in the DMG, we still have zero instances of it being the source of divine power.

You are inventing stuff here. It's a cool idea that the astral is the source, but that's not the default state in 5e. The default state is that the source of divine power is the gods.

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Why would you omit the part about a philosophy?