1 Sneak Attack per Round?
- Thread starter Stargher
- Start date
Numion
First Post
Plane Sailing said:
Not really true. Any particular rogue can participate in more than one flank, even if x & y here are not both recieving two attacks, they are both flanked and all attacks made by the three R's get sneak attack damage. (makes it sound like a math attack)
e.g. R x R y R
Yeah, you are right. But then we wouldn't be talking about very smart adventurers, if they walk in such a tight formation.
You're also right that just a couple of rogues could kill a party member if they get the opportunity. But so could the same number of wizards of the same level
(Worst case scenario with hasted mages is four spells/mage before players can react. Hardly worse than flanking rogues).
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
I used to strongly believe that allowing multiple sneak attacks was a bad idea, and I have changed my mind.
On paper, setting up a SA smackdown seems easy. But in practice it is much more difficult.
First of all, in order to get multiple SAs you must make a full round attack. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss. That is not too risky if you use missile weapons. OTOH, ranged attacks can easily be disrupted by very low level spells or a tower shield. A melee full attack option is the closest to a sure thing, it is not too difficult to set up with flanking, but that also means you are in harm's way if your target doesn't drop.
Second of all, there are lots of countermeasures, and at the levels where a Rogue has enough attacks to be worth worrying over his targets can afford them. A measly 25% Fortification is sufficient to cause plenty of headaches. At high levels, 75% Fortification is affordable, at which point SAs become a non-issue.
On paper, setting up a SA smackdown seems easy. But in practice it is much more difficult.
First of all, in order to get multiple SAs you must make a full round attack. Otherwise there is nothing to discuss. That is not too risky if you use missile weapons. OTOH, ranged attacks can easily be disrupted by very low level spells or a tower shield. A melee full attack option is the closest to a sure thing, it is not too difficult to set up with flanking, but that also means you are in harm's way if your target doesn't drop.
Second of all, there are lots of countermeasures, and at the levels where a Rogue has enough attacks to be worth worrying over his targets can afford them. A measly 25% Fortification is sufficient to cause plenty of headaches. At high levels, 75% Fortification is affordable, at which point SAs become a non-issue.
BlindKobold
First Post
4 6th level rogues could do some damage in an ambush. Especially with so forethought.
Feats (assuming human): combat reflexes, point blank shot, rapid shot, expert tactician
Items: Wand of Invisibility (or several scrolls), wand of magica weapon (or several scrolls), short bow, arrows
Preparation:
Rogues use their USE DEVICE skill to activate a wand of invisibility on themselves.
Rogues use their USE DEVICE skill to activate a wand of magic weapon on their bows and arrows. Effectively +2 to hit (bow +1 & arrows +1)
The takedown:
Unless the party has a way of detecting invisible, the rogues are probably going to get a jump on them.
Suprise round:
* 2 rogues target cleric (2 arrows each for 1d6+3d6 from rapid fire, plus another arrows for 1d6+3d6 due to expert tactician EACH). Total possible damage: 24d6 (avg: 84)
* 2 rogues target mage (2 arrows each for 1d6+3d6 from rapid fire, plus another arrows for 1d6+3d6 due to expert tactician EACH). Total possible damage: 24d6 (avg: 84)
Chances are, that's going to take them both down. Regardless, the rogues will take their 5' step to step behind cover.
Next round, if they win initiative:
* Rogues, hidden behind use the oppurtunity to HIDE and MOVE SILENTLY to new locations.
If they don't win initiative:
* If the fighters take the time to charge them, then they can pair off and flank the fighters. Otherwise, FEINT and hide in nearby brush, waiting for oppurtunity to strike.
You could very easily kill the entire party with these tactices.... and if they're not good enough... throw some poison in the mix, etc.
Feats (assuming human): combat reflexes, point blank shot, rapid shot, expert tactician
Items: Wand of Invisibility (or several scrolls), wand of magica weapon (or several scrolls), short bow, arrows
Preparation:
Rogues use their USE DEVICE skill to activate a wand of invisibility on themselves.
Rogues use their USE DEVICE skill to activate a wand of magic weapon on their bows and arrows. Effectively +2 to hit (bow +1 & arrows +1)
The takedown:
Unless the party has a way of detecting invisible, the rogues are probably going to get a jump on them.
Suprise round:
* 2 rogues target cleric (2 arrows each for 1d6+3d6 from rapid fire, plus another arrows for 1d6+3d6 due to expert tactician EACH). Total possible damage: 24d6 (avg: 84)
* 2 rogues target mage (2 arrows each for 1d6+3d6 from rapid fire, plus another arrows for 1d6+3d6 due to expert tactician EACH). Total possible damage: 24d6 (avg: 84)
Chances are, that's going to take them both down. Regardless, the rogues will take their 5' step to step behind cover.
Next round, if they win initiative:
* Rogues, hidden behind use the oppurtunity to HIDE and MOVE SILENTLY to new locations.
If they don't win initiative:
* If the fighters take the time to charge them, then they can pair off and flank the fighters. Otherwise, FEINT and hide in nearby brush, waiting for oppurtunity to strike.
You could very easily kill the entire party with these tactices.... and if they're not good enough... throw some poison in the mix, etc.
Ysgarran
Registered User
Definately not.
As mentioned before, the ability to sneak attack in the opening of combat is the one moment that the thief really gets to shine in combat.
The group I'm running is just about to finish up with the 'Nightfang Spire' module and the thief in the party has been having a pretty tough time because of the undead and the constructs.
The opportunity to get those sneak attacks in has caused the thief in our group to put himself in some very dangerous positions. In fact, it has gotten him killed on one occasion. (He had the opportunity to take out the opposing mage...he just didn't realize that the mage had an invisible Vrock as a bodyguard...one dead rogue)
The place where things get really interesting is with Rogues who have improved invisibility. Talk about the ability to dish out damage. That just points up the need to have an even party mix to deal with those kinds of situations.
As mentioned before, the ability to sneak attack in the opening of combat is the one moment that the thief really gets to shine in combat.
The group I'm running is just about to finish up with the 'Nightfang Spire' module and the thief in the party has been having a pretty tough time because of the undead and the constructs.
The opportunity to get those sneak attacks in has caused the thief in our group to put himself in some very dangerous positions. In fact, it has gotten him killed on one occasion. (He had the opportunity to take out the opposing mage...he just didn't realize that the mage had an invisible Vrock as a bodyguard...one dead rogue)
The place where things get really interesting is with Rogues who have improved invisibility. Talk about the ability to dish out damage. That just points up the need to have an even party mix to deal with those kinds of situations.
SpikeyFreak said:
Shouldn't you at least give the fighter their other 8-9 feats?
You didn't list levels, so I can't determine if your numbers are correct. From memory, must be at least 9th level for non-human rogues just to get that many feats.
I'm not sure what the best double weapon is, so alternate suggestions are welcome. Lets give the fighter a Double Axe, the complete TWF chain, and Power Attack. Now give him the double weapon with Speed on both heads. Don't forget to optimize the Power Attack to get the damage bonus.
In my experience, the rogues don't generally have the best weapons or armor. The fighter types (Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin) will get the first pick of this stuff. Rogues tend to have a lot of miscellaneous items, with the only items which are considered vital being being items that help Move Silently, Hide, and rings of Blinking or Invisibility.
The other thing to consider is the fighter will do much more consistent damage. The rogue will tend to hurt something bad when it hits, but get a little unlucky and the damage really drops fast.
*Shrug*
I haven't found "sneak attacks" to be that unbalancing. Quite frankly, I haven't had a situation where the main villain has been taken out by the rogue (or even her top lieutenants). In a world where sneak attacks are possible, nobody in their right mind lets themselves get flanked.
If the situation is shaping up that they will be flanked, many of my villains will simply leave the battle or at least place a cohort in-between himself and the flanked side.
I haven't found "sneak attacks" to be that unbalancing. Quite frankly, I haven't had a situation where the main villain has been taken out by the rogue (or even her top lieutenants). In a world where sneak attacks are possible, nobody in their right mind lets themselves get flanked.
If the situation is shaping up that they will be flanked, many of my villains will simply leave the battle or at least place a cohort in-between himself and the flanked side.
