1E vs Forked Thread: Is 4E doing it for you?

[thedungeondelver]

since I have never played them or even seen the rules, but everything I have heard so far suggests that they can't have been that interesting.

I'd do so before making that judgment. It's nice to have an informed opinion - this is why I actually played 3e and own the 4e rulebooks: so I understand what I dislike.

 

[That One Guy]

Musicals.

If you're a thief, you're a thief all the way, from your first lock pick, 'til your last hit point drained away.

I think you just won this thread. Now a Mod just needs to make it official.

 

[Simon Atavax]

I don't blame the tools for how some people choose to use them.

Perhaps, but it's easier to start fires with a flamethrower than an ice pick.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'd do so before making that judgment. It's nice to have an informed opinion - this is why I actually played 3e and own the 4e rulebooks: so I understand what I dislike.

That's why I stay interested in reading on these game systems. But I don't plan on playing them as long as I have only limited time for gaming (and lack the game rules anyway).

And I try to avoid judging a game by reading the rules only. Because they don't tell the whole picture. There's a lot of stuff that reads good on paper but plays well in the game, and the other way around. So, I try to go for the next best thing to actual play experience - look what other report about it to me.

 

[Allister]

To this day, nothing produced by WOTC in either 3e or 4e I believe compares in the sheer appeal to munchkinism that was the Complete Book of Elves or UA?

I'm sorry, but how can anyone with a straight face who played 1e/2e say that 3E/4E is about the build with those two books in their library?

 

[Scribble]

yeah... power gaming was in ful effect in 2e... There was just no attempt to account for it. This kit gives you these new powers. ooooh.

 

[Remathilis]

yeah... power gaming was in ful effect in 2e... There was just no attempt to account for it. This kit gives you these new powers. ooooh.

Nonesense. Most kits had drawbacks. Just none of the drawbacks BALANCED with what you were given as a benefit.

Typically:

FIGHTER KIT*
Benefit: You gain free weapon specialization in any weapon of your choice.
Negative: -2 to NPC reaction checks (yeah, who uses those).

OR

WIZARD KIT*
Benefit: You gain free proficiency in Longsword.
Negative: You only get 6 schools of magic, and have a -2 to saves against those schools you cannot cast from.

* based on, but not exactly like, real 2e kits.

 

[Scribble]

Nonesense. Most kits had drawbacks. Just none of the drawbacks BALANCED with what you were given as a benefit.

Ammounts to the same thing... but if you want ti nitpick feel free.

Admittedly it has been over 8 years since the last time I played 2e!

 

[RFisher]

In terms of mechanically boring, shallow, and bland, fighters and rogues truly got the shaft in this game and low level wizards and illusionists prayed for house cats to stay away.

See, the non-boring, non-shallow, non-bland stuff was the non-mechanical stuff.

You know, perhaps I enjoy “rules light” games so much because the aspects of the game I enjoy most aren’t covered by mechanics in any system. (OK, make that “most”—there are a lot of esoteric systems out there.) Exploration. Discovery. Problem solving. Deciding whether to go left or right. Deciding whether to make a frontal assault or something more oblique. Looking for out-of-the-box solutions. Knowing when to run and when to push it. Developing a personality for my PC.

None of the extra mechanics “more advanced” games present my fighter or rogue helps with any of that. And sometimes, it even gets in the way.

However, the crux of the problem is the old "I hit...I miss...I hit...for 7 points.." combat of previous editions gets really lame. Certainly I've gamed with some folks who had a great talent for narrative and made it pretty fun, however those people are rare exceptions IME.

The fix for the “I hit...I miss...I hit” problem is not narration. The only time you should get stuck in the hp attrition cycle is when you’ve done everything you can to tip the odds in your favor and you don’t have any other way of ending the combat sooner.

When I ran a B/X campaign recently, the players rarely just stood there and traded blows with the foes, and when they did it was only for a few rounds. Between maneuvering for advantage, using terrain to their advantage, spells, magic items, burning oil, parley, preparation, running, &c. combat seldom got boring.

Heck, if it did come down to that, the monster would run (or change tactics) because they’d usually be able to see that such a fight wasn’t going in their favor.

Of course, a good DM can also help out by making sure there’s interesting terrain that can be used tactically and the possibility for goals other than just killing the monsters.

 

[MerricB]

Oh WOW. Where to begin

By comparing to 1e and 2e, not BECMI D&D?

Cheers!