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2 weapon fighting
- Thread starter Inconsequenti-AL
- Start date
Kemrain
First Post
Dual Strike
I've posted this before, but I'll try again.
In my game, we've solved the 2 weapon fighting issues with a houserule and 2 feats.
Houserule:
First off, when fighting with two weapons you always recieve off-hand iterative attacks equal to your primary iterative attacks. A 16 BAB fighter will get 4 attacks at 16, 11, 6, and 1, and with a one-handed off-hand weapon he would recieve 8 attacks at 10, 6, 5, 1, 0, -4, -5 and -9. Hardly worth it, really.
Feat #1:
With the Two Weapon Fighting feat, however, your off-hand penalties are reduced as normal, for all your attacks.
We decided to impliment this rule because of the Two-Handed Weapon and Two-Weapon Fighting descrepancy. It's most often mathmatically superior to use a 2handed weapon than to use 2 weapons because of the higher damage output, the strength damage modifiers, Power Attack, the fact that you can't attack with both weapons with a standard attack or attack of opportunity, and (however, this wasn't part of my GM's argument) the cost of enchanting 2 weapons. DnD seems to believe in Greatsword supremacy. Shame, really.
Feat #2:
To fix most of the other issues with 2wf we invented a Feat called Dual Strike. As a standard action you may attack with both weapons, using a single attack roll, with 2 weapon penalties to hit, that functions (for strength and power attack purposes) as a 2 handed weapon.
We generally say that the damage types myst be identical for both weapons, slashing and slashing, no piercing with bludgeoning, and you must take the worse of each weapon's threat range and crit multiplier. When you crit, treat the weapons as one weapon that deals the combination of bothweapons damage dice- ie. 2 short swords threaten on a 19-20 and multiply their 2d6 damage by 2. 2 Handaxes would threaten only on a 20 and multiply their 2d6 weapon damage by 3.
This attack may be used as part of the attack action, may be used with spring attack, may be used on attacks of opportunity, as long as you take 2 weapon penalties to all your attacks that round.
In addition, at the cost of trading in one On and Off hand attack at the same Base Attack Bonus, you may Dual Strike as part of the Full Attack action, taking two weapon penalties on the attack and resolving it as a regular Dual Strike. If you have one iterative attack, you may make 2 Dual Strikes. If you have 3 iterative attacks, you may make 4, trading in all of you off-hand attacks to Dual Strike each time.
Dual Strikes are resolved as a single attack, so percision damage is only added in once. However, each weapon's enhancement bonus applies to damage. If your On-hand and Off-hand attacks are at a different bonus (but still at the same BAB) you use the lesser of the two when making a Dual Strike.
This explanation was rather unclear, I know, but I'm not sure how to fix that, and I'd be happy to clarafy for you. If anyone could re-write the feat description for me, I'd be much obliged.
The feat has a BAB 6+, a Dex 15+, and the Two Weapon Fighting feat as prerequisites.
- Kemrain the Hopefully Helpful.
I've posted this before, but I'll try again.
In my game, we've solved the 2 weapon fighting issues with a houserule and 2 feats.
Houserule:
First off, when fighting with two weapons you always recieve off-hand iterative attacks equal to your primary iterative attacks. A 16 BAB fighter will get 4 attacks at 16, 11, 6, and 1, and with a one-handed off-hand weapon he would recieve 8 attacks at 10, 6, 5, 1, 0, -4, -5 and -9. Hardly worth it, really.
Feat #1:
With the Two Weapon Fighting feat, however, your off-hand penalties are reduced as normal, for all your attacks.
We decided to impliment this rule because of the Two-Handed Weapon and Two-Weapon Fighting descrepancy. It's most often mathmatically superior to use a 2handed weapon than to use 2 weapons because of the higher damage output, the strength damage modifiers, Power Attack, the fact that you can't attack with both weapons with a standard attack or attack of opportunity, and (however, this wasn't part of my GM's argument) the cost of enchanting 2 weapons. DnD seems to believe in Greatsword supremacy. Shame, really.
Feat #2:
To fix most of the other issues with 2wf we invented a Feat called Dual Strike. As a standard action you may attack with both weapons, using a single attack roll, with 2 weapon penalties to hit, that functions (for strength and power attack purposes) as a 2 handed weapon.
We generally say that the damage types myst be identical for both weapons, slashing and slashing, no piercing with bludgeoning, and you must take the worse of each weapon's threat range and crit multiplier. When you crit, treat the weapons as one weapon that deals the combination of bothweapons damage dice- ie. 2 short swords threaten on a 19-20 and multiply their 2d6 damage by 2. 2 Handaxes would threaten only on a 20 and multiply their 2d6 weapon damage by 3.
This attack may be used as part of the attack action, may be used with spring attack, may be used on attacks of opportunity, as long as you take 2 weapon penalties to all your attacks that round.
In addition, at the cost of trading in one On and Off hand attack at the same Base Attack Bonus, you may Dual Strike as part of the Full Attack action, taking two weapon penalties on the attack and resolving it as a regular Dual Strike. If you have one iterative attack, you may make 2 Dual Strikes. If you have 3 iterative attacks, you may make 4, trading in all of you off-hand attacks to Dual Strike each time.
Dual Strikes are resolved as a single attack, so percision damage is only added in once. However, each weapon's enhancement bonus applies to damage. If your On-hand and Off-hand attacks are at a different bonus (but still at the same BAB) you use the lesser of the two when making a Dual Strike.
This explanation was rather unclear, I know, but I'm not sure how to fix that, and I'd be happy to clarafy for you. If anyone could re-write the feat description for me, I'd be much obliged.
The feat has a BAB 6+, a Dex 15+, and the Two Weapon Fighting feat as prerequisites.
- Kemrain the Hopefully Helpful.
Um, just to clarify.
SCA sticks are not padded, and stabbing works just fine.
.
Also, I think it would be easier, in most cases, to take two quick attacks with the same sword, rather than trying to use two different ones.
As a 'reality', I don't think it makes sense. As a balance to help the TWF fighter....maybe.
.
SCA sticks are not padded, and stabbing works just fine.
.
Also, I think it would be easier, in most cases, to take two quick attacks with the same sword, rather than trying to use two different ones.
As a 'reality', I don't think it makes sense. As a balance to help the TWF fighter....maybe.
.
Inconsequenti-AL
Breaks Games
Inconsequenti-al said:
Apologies, muddled brain. Meant to say it's weaker than '2 handed weapon' instead of '2 weapon'.
I've been finding that 2 handed weapon is the 'best' style for most combatants. IME, 2 weapon fighting worked well for rogues or others with +XDX damage types. Otherwise it didn't seem worth the considerable investment of feats required. Sword and board wasn't even getting a look in.
Started picking over the problem with the group. Part of the fix we came up with was to change the item that caused most of that... Animated shields now get priced like a Ring of Force Shield instead of a straight +2 bonus. So (Shield Bonus ^2)*2000.
sledged - We realised it was going to get confusing trying to work this out for natural attackers. And there was no way it could get a subtle fudging - looks like one of the PCs wants to try a Thiri-Kreen - which is going to be complicated enough already.
Kemrain - I like what you've got there! It's possibly a little too complicated for us, but I do like the way that fits together.
reanjr said:
I like it! Hadn't even thought of that...
index
Definitely with you on the difficulty of it. I'm impressed, I find it difficult to use 2 guns effectively at all - tried it paintballing and on Time Crisis 2. Just get my unco-ordinated self into a tangle.
I've never tried fighting like that, I'd probably do myself some mischief!As far as 'reality' goes, this group plays DnD like a game of fantasy superpowered heros. It's just our style. Tasks 'no-one could perform' are meant to be easy for their high level characters... I know a lot of people do it different! Ars Magica tends to get wheeled out for more brutal games.
Pounce was an angle we looked at, but seemed way too powerful for a feat. Liked the basic idea, so decided to steal Heroic Surge feat from star wars D20. Get an extra move action 1/day/4 levels. Allows spring+full attacks, but puts a limit on them and makes it optional.
Between that and the animated shields it seems to be working out, without really changing anything big.
Thanks very much for all the input!
I made the following changes to make it more beneficial to play a TWF.
First I changed a few feats so that a TWFer can potentially do more damage per round. Since TWFers are typically weak (12-13 strength?) the extra damage isn’t rule breaking. Even if a TWFer has an 18 in strength, this change only grants an extra 2 points of damage per successful strike.
Secondly, I made a few new feats so that TWFers didn’t have to spend twice as many feats to have Weapon Focus, specialization, and improved critical as before. Strategically, it is still better to use two of an identical weapon, two rapiers for instance, and take the PHB weapon focus, specialization, and improved critical in case you get disarmed or sundered; you still get the perks of the feats for the remaining weapon. But for those that want to use different weapons, they can purchase the feats that when that given pair of weapons are used together, you get your bonuses. Lose one weapon and a lot of feats can go bye-bye real quick.
Thirdly, the accuracy of the TWF still could not compare with a THF so I reduced all the penalties for fighting with two weapons by two points across the board. The only thing I didn’t like about it was once I did, there was no penalty for fighting with two weapons as long as you used two daggers or longsword/dagger or similar pair. However, I didn’t want to complicate the math more than I had to so I just left it with no penalty. Plus, with no penalty, it gives the players greater incentive to play TWFers and not another falchion wielding THF. If I see another falchion TWF, I’m going to destroy my DM screen and throw away my dice.
So without further ado,
Changed Feats:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –8 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A character with Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting is allowed to use his full positive strength modifier (if any) to his off-hand attack rolls.
WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.
A character with Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting is allowed to use his full positive strength modifier (if any) to his off-hand attack rolls.
New Feats:
Btw, some are not type out here, like greater [feat], or the two-weapon improved critical.
TWO-WEAPON FOCUS [GENERAL]
Choose one pair of weapons. These weapons can be of the same type or different types. Some examples are warhammer/warhammer, longsword/battleaxe, longsword/dagger, dagger/dagger.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls for all primary and off-hand attacks you make using the selected pair of weapons.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a pair of weapons.
A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.
TWO-WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL]
Choose one pair of weapon for which you have already selected the Two-Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using this pair of weapons.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Two-Weapon Focus with selected pair of weapons, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls for all primary and off-hand attacks you make using the selected pair of weapons.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new pair of weapons.
A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.
First I changed a few feats so that a TWFer can potentially do more damage per round. Since TWFers are typically weak (12-13 strength?) the extra damage isn’t rule breaking. Even if a TWFer has an 18 in strength, this change only grants an extra 2 points of damage per successful strike.
Secondly, I made a few new feats so that TWFers didn’t have to spend twice as many feats to have Weapon Focus, specialization, and improved critical as before. Strategically, it is still better to use two of an identical weapon, two rapiers for instance, and take the PHB weapon focus, specialization, and improved critical in case you get disarmed or sundered; you still get the perks of the feats for the remaining weapon. But for those that want to use different weapons, they can purchase the feats that when that given pair of weapons are used together, you get your bonuses. Lose one weapon and a lot of feats can go bye-bye real quick.
Thirdly, the accuracy of the TWF still could not compare with a THF so I reduced all the penalties for fighting with two weapons by two points across the board. The only thing I didn’t like about it was once I did, there was no penalty for fighting with two weapons as long as you used two daggers or longsword/dagger or similar pair. However, I didn’t want to complicate the math more than I had to so I just left it with no penalty. Plus, with no penalty, it gives the players greater incentive to play TWFers and not another falchion wielding THF. If I see another falchion TWF, I’m going to destroy my DM screen and throw away my dice.
So without further ado,
Changed Feats:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –8 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A character with Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting is allowed to use his full positive strength modifier (if any) to his off-hand attack rolls.
WEAPON FINESSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Weapon Finesse as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Natural weapons are always considered light weapons.
A character with Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting is allowed to use his full positive strength modifier (if any) to his off-hand attack rolls.
New Feats:
Btw, some are not type out here, like greater [feat], or the two-weapon improved critical.
TWO-WEAPON FOCUS [GENERAL]
Choose one pair of weapons. These weapons can be of the same type or different types. Some examples are warhammer/warhammer, longsword/battleaxe, longsword/dagger, dagger/dagger.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls for all primary and off-hand attacks you make using the selected pair of weapons.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a pair of weapons.
A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.
TWO-WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL]
Choose one pair of weapon for which you have already selected the Two-Weapon Focus feat. You deal extra damage when using this pair of weapons.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Two-Weapon Focus with selected pair of weapons, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls for all primary and off-hand attacks you make using the selected pair of weapons.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new pair of weapons.
A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.
robberbaron
First Post
You'd end up with more characters using 2-weapons thus carving through your hard-prepared monsters that much easier.
The Iaijutsu Master PrC gives the ability to attack twice as a standard action as a Feat at 7th level (min. 13th Character level) and I get it next level - and am REALLY looking forward to it as it will give my character a significant combat boost. Would work spectacularly with Spring Attack.
My 2p - Don't do it without a feat. It will bite you on your ass if you do.
Unless you give all your creatures using 2 claw attacks the same ability.
The Iaijutsu Master PrC gives the ability to attack twice as a standard action as a Feat at 7th level (min. 13th Character level) and I get it next level - and am REALLY looking forward to it as it will give my character a significant combat boost. Would work spectacularly with Spring Attack.
My 2p - Don't do it without a feat. It will bite you on your ass if you do.
Unless you give all your creatures using 2 claw attacks the same ability.
ecliptic
First Post
Uh I thought you could only make one sneak attack per round against a single person period?
I think letting the person always make two attacks against his foe as a standard action is balanced. I mean yes two-weapon fighting is better then wielding a two handed sword. But it doesn't require anyone to take a feat to use a two-handed sword.
Also shall I suggest a new Ambidexterity feat?
Ambidexterity
You are considered neither left handed nor right handed.
Benefit: You can use use both your hands equally as good. Allowing you to use your full Strength modifier for damage when two weapon fighting. Sleight of Handed also uses Dexterity modifier and a half (round down) instead of just your normal Dexterity modifier.
I know its a bit poor wording, but it is 5:30am.
I think letting the person always make two attacks against his foe as a standard action is balanced. I mean yes two-weapon fighting is better then wielding a two handed sword. But it doesn't require anyone to take a feat to use a two-handed sword.
Also shall I suggest a new Ambidexterity feat?
Ambidexterity
You are considered neither left handed nor right handed.
Benefit: You can use use both your hands equally as good. Allowing you to use your full Strength modifier for damage when two weapon fighting. Sleight of Handed also uses Dexterity modifier and a half (round down) instead of just your normal Dexterity modifier.
I know its a bit poor wording, but it is 5:30am.
Last edited:
Kemrain
First Post
No, every attack a Rogue makes against an opponent who's flanked or denied his dex bonus is a Sneak Attack. If Rogues could only make one sneak attack per round, they'd need to get some sort of compensation for it.ecliptic said:
I wouldn't call 2wf better than wielding a greatsword at all. You only have one attack roll with a greatsword, do 1.5x strength damage, 2x Power Attack damage, don't take a penalty to hit, pay less for enchantments... 2 Weapon Fighting has some serious drawbacks, such as the feat cost and the continued feat cost to remain viable. A feat, like Dualstrike, that makes 2 shortswords emulate a greatsword, both swung on one attack, is, in my opinion, a better way to go than allowing 2 attacks on a standard attack. 2 Sneak Attacks, with Spring Attack, every round, is powerful. Two weapon fighting is a versatile style, not a powerful style, and it pays for it's versatility with a penalty to hit, so it shouldn't pay again with so many feats required.ecliptic said:
ecliptic said:
I think this feat is unnecessary if you can simply use the Two Handed Weapon rules with Two Weapon Fighting (ala Dualstrike). Most 2WF'ers aren't going to get a massive bonus from strength anyway. Adding more static damage to 2wf is nice, but the cost of all those feats makes the style prohibitively expensive. A human Rogue gets 8 feats, and about half of them go to this style, if they wish to remain effective. Dualstrike aside, what 2WF needs is consolidation of feats, not more.
Two Weapon Combat should not be more effective at dealing damage than wielding a Greatsword. It should be equal in the damage department. What Two Weapon Fighting buys you is versatility, not damage output, so it shouldn't cost so damn much to keep up with a greatsword and power attack.
- Kemrain the Consolid.
ecliptic said:
It depends on what type of weapons you are using. If you use two weapons, or a single weapon and attack multiple times, as many SAs as you have attacks.
If you use a 'volley' attack, such as multi-shot, or a handfull of shuriken, only your first attack out of the volley count as a SA. Though, if you can resease multiple volleys, you can still get more than one SA.
Quoted from
WotC: Rules of the Game - Sneak Attacks [Page 3 of 4]
Number of Sneak Attacks
Provided it is possible for you to make a sneak attack at all, you can make multiple sneak attacks when you use the full attack action. For example, if you have a higher initiative result at the beginning of an encounter, your foe is flat-footed and every attack you make is a sneak attack. The same is true if you flank your foe.
Anything that allows you to make extra attacks during the full attack action gets you extra sneak attacks as well: fighting with two weapons, the haste spell, and the monk's flurry of blows are the most common ways of getting extra attacks.
Remember the earlier note about invisibility effects, however. If you're relying on invisibility to set up a sneak attack, you'll only have the effect for the first attack you make during your turn. You'll still get all your extra attacks, but only the first will be a sneak attack. You don't have this problem if you're using a greater invisibility effect.
WotC: Rules of the Game - Sneak Attacks [Page 3 of 4]
Number of Sneak Attacks
Provided it is possible for you to make a sneak attack at all, you can make multiple sneak attacks when you use the full attack action. For example, if you have a higher initiative result at the beginning of an encounter, your foe is flat-footed and every attack you make is a sneak attack. The same is true if you flank your foe.
Anything that allows you to make extra attacks during the full attack action gets you extra sneak attacks as well: fighting with two weapons, the haste spell, and the monk's flurry of blows are the most common ways of getting extra attacks.
Remember the earlier note about invisibility effects, however. If you're relying on invisibility to set up a sneak attack, you'll only have the effect for the first attack you make during your turn. You'll still get all your extra attacks, but only the first will be a sneak attack. You don't have this problem if you're using a greater invisibility effect.
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