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D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

So. We have limits on when and how. Where are the limits on what?
I think there is no real compromise and they will continue to skirt around the ages. I don't want a wuxia fighter which honestly is what people want if casters are going to be traditional casters. So they can't possibly make you and me happy. We are diametrically opposed. I don't want superboy at 20th level. I don't want supernatural power. I can live with cinematic power vs reality.

I don't know why they don't just spin off another game. Then remove all the things from D&D that don't fit the games tradition.

What is funny is...the 5e game you decry is one also I decry. I think it's too much of something that you find lacking. I think part of WOTC's problems is they are forced to make a new edition every ten years for reasons of profit.
 

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I'm sure people are. But I am pretty sure D&D has long since missed the chance to do that.
it might have, but I rather stick to my choices than to follow D&D wherever it goes. I already decided to not go with 2024 and getting alternatives to D&D.

At this point I consider it a matter of time until I either move on entirely or homebrew my own thing that is sufficiently compatible to use adventures and monsters and sufficiently different to meet my needs, somehow no one / very few seem to really go for that middle ground between Shadowdark and 5e that I want to be in…
 

An excellent dichotomy, because...well...

There is no such thing as an actually simple caster. And there is no such thing as an actually complex martial. 5e has the most "complex" martial character (in 5.5e, probably either the Wild Heart Barbarian since your totem animal is per-rage now, or the Battle Master Fighter for obvious reasons) being dramatically simpler than the most "simple" caster (probably a blasting-focused Sorcerer? Or maybe a by-the-book Warlock of some kind?) It's frankly hard to even call any spellcaster simple, the closest being the Paladin...which is 5e's closest approximation of a true, innate caster-martial hybrid to begin with.

For my part, the heavily complex classes should reward clever play, but as a direct consequence, be frequently subject to "well, you chose the wrong situational abilities for this context, so...sorry, not much you can do right now." Conversely, the heavily simple classes should have a pretty good solid baseline of capability in all three pillars, but be inflexible with that kit: when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, more or less. In the grey area between the greatest extremes thereof, there would ideally be classes that have a little bit of flexibility, but still mostly locked in.

The revised Champion Fighter actually isn't the worst (anymore), but it's still a bit short of the "something for every pillar" department. Had they not done the utterly infuriating design choice of making Tactical Mind eating your Second Wind uses, that would have gone a long way toward closing the remaining gap for players who really do just want The Simplest Experience, Please. And then, just as Eldritch Knight gives just the lightest taste of what a Wizard can do, Battle Master would thus be the lightest taste of what a proper Warlord class could do, with the uppermost echelons of a Warlord being moderately-high complexity--not as complex as the most complex casters (WIzards, presumably), but comparable to (say) a Cleric.
Yep, I agree with all of this.

For a Simple-Caster, I'm envisioning something like the Warlock, just minus the spells and most of the invocation choices, but with more options for warrior-damage scaling than just Eldritch Blast. Some extra resilience and mitigation abilities, and something like Action Surge (maybe "Overload Cantrip", that lets the cantrip hit an area once or twice a short rest.) Tack on bonus action short-range teleport or some other defensive/utility boost, and put a bunch of flavorful utility options into the subclasses.

Complex martial could go a few different directions, but some combination of warlord and paladin (battlefield controller and party buffer/protector) or a ranger/rogue/blood hunter (lore and skill expert, has a trick or trap for every situation) would be my initial thoughts.
 

What is funny is...the 5e game you decry is one also I decry. I think it's too much of something that you find lacking. I think part of WOTC's problems is they are forced to make a new edition every ten years for reasons of profit.
Since I'm currently playing Civilization 7, I'm noticing some similarities between those games and how D&D is released. Each version of Civ has its adherents, because they're all very distinct despite their outward similarities (much like D&D). Plenty of people loved 5, but didn't like 6. Plenty of people like 6, but aren't fans of 7. And even earlier editions like 4 still have adherents.

Which, I mean, is kind of what we have now. Each edition of D&D has its adherents, and all of them are still available to play. The only people who really need to battle for the "soul of D&D" are those who never got a version of the game that really spoke to their needs. And 4e is the one version that's still locked down and can't really be built upon, which also needs to change.
 


Which, I mean, is kind of what we have now. Each edition of D&D has its adherents, and all of them are still available to play. The only people who really need to battle for the "soul of D&D" are those who never got a version of the game that really spoke to their needs. And 4e is the one version that's still locked down and can't really be built upon, which also needs to change.
I would support them doing that for the 4e players even though I am not a 4e person when it comes to preferences.
 

And 4e is the one version that's still locked down and can't really be built upon, which also needs to change.
What do you mean by this? The materials are available on the guild and the 3e SRD / OGL allows you to make compatible products. That is basically what 13th age did after all.
 

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