D&D (2024) 2024 needs to end 2014's passive aggressive efforts to remove magic items & other elements from d&d

[Mistwell]

It's not a major problem. Just an easy one to run into that it's not unheard-of.

But like I said I know of 2 New DMs who heard that 5e runs low magic fine, tried it, and failed.

And WOTC warped the whole game system to accommodate a niche desire.

What whole game system did they warp to accommodate a niche desire again? Not assuming magic items in the math - which was not done for low magic campaigns but was done because magic items are so random and varied in what they do - is not accommodating some niche desire I am aware of.

The Lord of the Rings game that used 5e as its basis did accomplish a low magic campaign pretty well. But it's nothing like 5e's design or basic premise. They changed all the classes just to accommodate that concept, and the challenges and even exploration.

 

[Minigiant]

What whole game system did they warp to accommodate a niche desire again? Not assuming magic items in the math - which was not done for low magic campaigns but was done because magic items are so random and varied in what they do - is not accommodating some niche desire I am aware of.

It does warp the game. The game was designed around not having magic items.

Handing out magic items makes 5e super easy and youd have to eye recalculating it back into challenge because there is no calculator for it

 

[Vikingkingq]

FWIW, I think low-magic 5e can work, but it is true that the DMG could provide better detail for how to do it.

 

[Mistwell]

It does warp the game. The game was designed around not having magic items.

Handing out magic items makes 5e super easy and youd have to eye recalculating it back into challenge because there is no calculator for it

This is ALSO not a common issue relating to magic items and definitely not the point you have been making all along about new players. People who claim 5e is too easy are not generally referring to magic items. They don't mean the 5% difference of a +1 item, they're talking about things like the ease of healing and the power of wizard spells and such.

I am going to ask one more time for you to provide some sort of support for these claims you're making (which now appear to be shifting from "they promised low magic" to "the game was designed for a niche" to "the game is warped because it's too easy with magic items"). "I know two DMs who tried and failed to do a low magic campaign" isn't the sort of support you jumped into this conversation with, which was about new players and DMs as a generalization and claims about YouTube videos.

If you don't have any of that support, then I am wondering why you jumped into that conversation and derailed it in the first place?

 

[Minigiant]

This is ALSO not a common issue relating to magic items and definitely not the point you have been making all along about new players. People who claim 5e is too easy are not generally referring to magic items. They don't mean the 5% difference of a +1 item, they're talking about things like the ease of healing and the power of wizard spells and such.

This illustrates my point.

People say 5e is easy because of healing and wizard magic. But that is not why 5e is easy. If you have the amount of encounters 5e was designed around then you don't have enough spells to heal or do shenanigans until the higher levels that now one plays.

5e is easy because few tables play 5e as it was designed.
5e was not designed for PCS to have feats or magic items or less that 4 encounters per long rest.
And WOTC doesn't even make adventures without magic items. And they expect you to use all the feats they print in every other book.

That's the issue. 5e was designed to have a featless, magic-tem-less, long dungeon crawler base but copied, sold, and is played around a game that uses feats and magic items with a allowance for low encounter days.

which was about new players and DMs as a generalization and claims about YouTube videos.

If you don't have any of that support, then I am wondering why you jumped into that conversation and derailed it in the first place?

You stated the problem doesn't exist.

But if you type in "magic items 5e" you will get lists from popular Youtubers like the Dungeon Dudes, Dungeon Coach, Nerd Immersion etc about the magic items 5e was not designed around you having but everyone expects.

 

[Mistwell]

This illustrates my point.

People say 5e is easy because of healing and wizard magic. But that is not why 5e is easy. If you have the amount of encounters 5e was designed around then you don't have enough spells to heal or do shenanigans until the higher levels that now one plays.

5e is easy because few tables play 5e as it was designed.
5e was not designed for PCS to have feats or magic items or less that 4 encounters per long rest.
And WOTC doesn't even make adventures without magic items. And they expect you to use all the feats they print in every other book.

That's the issue. 5e was designed to have a featless, magic-tem-less, long dungeon crawler base but copied, sold, and is played around a game that uses feats and magic items with a allowance for low encounter days.



You stated the problem doesn't exist.

But if you type in "magic items 5e" you will get lists from popular Youtubers like the Dungeon Dudes, Dungeon Coach, Nerd Immersion etc about the magic items 5e was not designed around you having but everyone expects.

Again, there is ZERO evidence 5e was designed to be magic-item-less. Saying the numbers used do not assume magic items is not the same as 5e being designed to have no magic items. They know you likely have them, they gave you treasure tables and rarity scales for them, they put out adventures with them, but because they're random, and their effects are random, they designed it in a way where they can't assume any specific type or quantity of magic items you might have.

IE they can't assume you have a +5% increase to attack and damage from a magic weapon when you might instead have +0 hammer that can cast fear or a bead that contains a ton of water that can blow a target back or a token that conjures a creature who knows what. It's not designed for you to have no magic items - it's designed for you to not need A SPECIFIC TYPE OF MAGIC ITEM.

If you disagree, show me evidence that the game assumes no magic items. I've asked repeatedly, you refuse to present it, so I am asking one last time.

Yeah, there is no problem with this thing. Nobody is commonly starting the game with no spellcasters and no magic items and then getting their butts kicked by creatures who take advantage of you having no magic spells or magic items - which is what you were replying to. You refuse to present ANY evidence such is a common issue, you keep changing your argument around to talk about something else (suddenly you claim your point was about encounters in a day when this is the first time you've mentioned that?) rather than the example we were discussing, and every time I try and pin you down on your point and support for your point you just change it again and make some vague claims about "DMs you know" or "these guys make videos" with no links or consistent claims about anything.

 

[James Gasik]

To quote Xanathar's:

"ARE MAGIC ITEMS NECESSARY IN A CAMPAIGN ? The D&D game is built on the assumption that magic items appear sporadically and that they are always a boon, unless an item bears a curse. Characters and monsters are built to face each other without the help of magic items, which means that having a magic item always makes a character more powerful or versatile than a generic character of the same level. As DM, you never have to worry about awarding magic items just so the characters can keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No."

It then goes on to say (which is what I've been saying all along): "Magic items can go from nice to necessary in the rare group that has no spellcasters, no monk, and no PCs capable of casting magic weapon. Having no magic makes it extremely difficult for a party to overcome monsters that have resistances or immunity to nonmagical damage. In such a game, you'll want to be generous with magic weapons or else avoid using such monsters."

Now I don't know what kind of evidence is needed, but here are a few things that are true:

Magic items aren't in the PHB, which has "everything you need to play the game" (Maxperson would say anything not in the PHB isn't RAW because of this claim).

Magic items are in the DMG, and never states whether they are necessary or not. Since most of the rules in the DMG are optional, a perception that magic items are, much like Feats, Multiclassing, or Oathbreaker Paladins arises.

There are several DM's you'll find on this forum who prefer a low/no magic D&D for whatever reason, and they will make the claim you don't need magic items, or even spellcasters for the game to run just fine. If you haven't seen any of their posts, I can only assume you have them blocked.

There is no rhyme or reason to how magic items become available, if at all. This is important because while the game assumes they appear "sporadically", it's only as a bonus, not to shore up critical weaknesses of characters. Not every character is going to get an item that gives them a bonus on saving throws, for example. While the PHB does advise that you have a balanced party (kinda), it's in an odd place and not really upfront about it. This led other people to assume the game runs just fine regardless of party choice (something I erroneously picked up on from other people saying- and I'm not the only one).

Because there are DM's who believe that magic items aren't needed (and will say as much quite often to anyone who will listen), that's just another way the game isn't played according to WotC's expectations. This isn't helped by the fact that they are very careful not to say "yes, you really should let players access ABC items and levels XYZ" (see bolded statement above).

The thread says there's a passive aggressive effort to remove magic items from the game- this is false, but WotC is being quite passive about advocating for their use, to the point that those who refuse to believe they should be a part of the game will ignore the few times they do mention you should take them into account (second quote, above).

So I will amend the OP's statement a bit. WotC really should become more aggressive about the expectations and handling of magic items in 2024.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So I will amend the OP's statement a bit. WotC really should become more aggressive about the expectations and handling of magic items in 2024.

And if they don't? Then what?

 

[Horwath]

And if they don't? Then what?

then we are left with this cluster"#$% of (non)pricing, (non)market, needed or not needed ambiguity for campaigns or published scenarios.

 

[DEFCON 1]

then we are left with this cluster"#$% of (non)pricing, (non)market, needed or not needed ambiguity for campaigns or published scenarios.

Okay. And? Then what? Is there a plan to do something about it if necessary?

If the answer is "No, I'm not going to do anything, I'm going to just be mad about it", that's cool. Whatever works for you. I might think that's a little self-sabotaging, but it's your game.