D&D (2024) 2024 needs to end 2014's passive aggressive efforts to remove magic items & other elements from d&d

[Horwath]

Okay. And? Then what? Is there a plan to do something about it if necessary?

If the answer is "No, I'm not going to do anything, I'm going to just be mad about it", that's cool. Whatever works for you. I might think that's a little self-sabotaging, but it's your game.

yeah, there is searching for 3PP for some reasonable price tables or just homebrewing yourself.

 

[mamba]

Okay. And? Then what? Is there a plan to do something about it if necessary?

something like what? Picket the WotC HQ?

Xanathar’s has some guidelines about handing out magic items, I guess I keep using those as a rough baseline then, but I do assume those will make it into the 2024 DMG

As to pricing, crafting, etc. there are plenty 3pp books for that you could use, or you homebrew, just like you could / have to do now

 

[James Gasik]

What will we do if they don't?

Do what we do now. The best we can with the rules we have. Or make up better ones. Or switch to a different game and stop giving WotC money. Make more posts talking about it only for people to say "I have never seen this as a problem in the entire run of 5e, and I play low/no magic games with no spellcasters all the time."

I didn't say WotC must do this, only that they should. Probably.

 

[payn]

I didn't say WotC must do this, only that they should. Probably.

Add it to the long list. Maybe one day, folks will be right and it will hurt D&D. That day does not appear to be today though.

 

[DEFCON 1]

yeah, there is searching for 3PP for some reasonable price tables or just homebrewing yourself.

something like what? Picket the WotC HQ?

Xanathar’s has some guidelines about handing out magic items, I guess I keep using those as a rough baseline then, but I do assume those will make it into the 2024 DMG

As to pricing, crafting, etc. there are plenty 3pp books for that you could use, or you homebrew, just like you could / have to do now

Then if these solutions are already on the table and probably would have already had to have been done by folks since the rules weren't in the 2014 version... then why should anyone get bent out of shape about them appearing or not appearing in 2024? Or insist that WotC needs to solve this issue? If (general) you already have a solution, then (general) you're good.

 

[James Gasik]

Then if these solutions are already on the table and probably would have already had to have been done by folks since the rules weren't in the 2014 version... then why should anyone get bent out of shape about them appearing or not appearing in 2024? Or insist that WotC needs to solve this issue? If (general) you already have a solution, then (general) you're good.

Wouldn't it be nice to not need to solve it? Or to find out the hard way, if you're just starting out as a DM?

 

[tetrasodium]

something like what? Picket the WotC HQ?

Xanathar’s has some guidelines about handing out magic items, I guess I keep using those as a rough baseline then, but I do assume those will make it into the 2024 DMG

As to pricing, crafting, etc. there are plenty 3pp books for that you could use, or you homebrew, just like you could / have to do now

Then if these solutions are already on the table and probably would have already had to have been done by folks since the rules weren't in the 2014 version... then why should anyone get bent out of shape about them appearing or not appearing in 2024? Or insist that WotC needs to solve this issue? If (general) you already have a solution, then (general) you're good.

he trouble with that sort of homebrew &3PP stuff mentioned by all three of the above posts is that the foundations of the core are designed in a way that is hostile to being patched due to having so many areas intended to remove mechanical support structures and poorly implemented areas leaning on "but magic items are optional" to justify the state they exist in.

Here are a few examples

• There are several attempts at shifting from the insane magic item pricing in the dmg to something better thought out.all of them are trying to engage in heavy duty construction stop a foundation of sand. That sand can not be easily fixed because of missing structures like body slots and the bizarrely random application of attunement: yes... Perhaps that last one is because the 2014 phb guidelines for attunement were used to determine what Should and shouldn't require it were the bases for deciding?
• You can't simply add the missing structures needed to use magic items for any use other than a "boon"because the monsters are built with awful assumptions of PC efficacy that omit magic items and feats both.
• Sure the gm can adjust monsters, but the GM is not the only person who needs to adjust. In order for those adjustments to work it requires the players get onboard and work to fill the kinds of needs that the gm is offering magic item solutions to or for the GM to choose between rocks fall encounters and folding while going back to accepting they are merely a "boon" but with extra work on their part as a result of all the PC specific problems that come with significantly reworking so much of the game.
• You could replace all of the monsters with monsters using totally new math... But again not every class will be impacted to the same degree and it just becomes a game of our optimizing through the holes in what the gm thought was pretty solid homebrew sandcastle till Bob took a level in something that stomped the sand castle.
• Heck... The DC ladder doesn't even scale high enough to make room for magic items to influence checks

When do much of the system is built around an effort to ensure that magic items are "always a boon" there is only one style of game that has a need of that crude club. That particular style is one with a baseline of "low / no magic item"world and it comes with a nontrivial to correct set of hurdles that all need to be cleanly and unanimously cleared simultaneously.

Unfortunately a notable part of the added difficulty in accomplishing that perfect finish comes in the form of the GM having nothing that they can point their players to that would explain the kinds of changes they are making and why those are important just so the gm could quickly and easily try to get everyone on the same page rather than working against it in different ways. Once again, the only "benefit" is the shield of innocence and plausible deniability granting even a single player to work against the gm's efforts at getting away from "always a boon" without coming off as some kind of killer/overbearing/etc gm once the gm starts giving out [now game breaking] magic items for any other purpose.

 

[mamba]

why should anyone get bent out of shape about them appearing or not appearing in 2024? Or insist that WotC needs to solve this issue? If (general) you already have a solution, then (general) you're good.

I am good, wouldn’t hurt for WotC to do better than in 2014 though, that seems to be the whole point of the 2024 books after all

 

[mamba]

he trouble with that sort of homebrew &3PP stuff mentioned by all three of the above posts is that the foundations of the core are designed in a way that is hostile to being patched due to having so many areas intended to remove mechanical support structures and poorly implemented areas leaning on "but magic items are optional" to justify the state they exist in.

I disagree with the premise

Here are a few examples

• There are several attempts at shifting from the insane magic item pricing in the dmg to something better thought out.all of them are trying to engage in heavy duty construction stop a foundation of sand. That sand can not be easily fixed because of missing structures like body slots and the bizarrely random application of attunement: yes... Perhaps that last one is because the 2014 phb guidelines for attunement were used to determine what Should and shouldn't require it were the bases for deciding?

You do not need body slots to figure out where a helmet, gloves and chest armor go...

• You can't simply add the missing structures needed to use magic items for any use other than a "boon"because the monsters are built with awful assumptions of PC efficacy that omit magic items and feats both.
• Sure the gm can adjust monsters, but the GM is not the only person who needs to adjust. In order for those adjustments to work it requires the players get onboard and work to fill the kinds of needs that the gm is offering magic item solutions to or for the GM to choose between rocks fall encounters and folding while going back to accepting they are merely a "boon" but with extra work on their part as a result of all the PC specific problems that come with significantly reworking so much of the game.
• You could replace all of the monsters with monsters using totally new math... But again not every class will be impacted to the same degree and it just becomes a game of our optimizing through the holes in what the gm thought was pretty solid homebrew sandcastle till Bob took a level in something that stomped the sand castle.

that all sounds like the same item to me... hand out magic items, make encounters slightly harder, done. Pretty sure you also complain about how unreliable CR is, so you are not losing anything that way

• Heck... The DC ladder doesn't even scale high enough to make room for magic items to influence checks

that makes no sense, if the magic item affects your DC roll in some form, then it influences the check. The DC ladder has nothing to do with that, unless you want something so insanely hard that it can only be done with that one specific magic item that gives a +10 to that one specific scenario. At that point, forget about DCs and just say the item is required, because that is what it is, whether you hide that behind a DC or not

 

[CapnZapp]

Is 5e too hard? Eh. It depends. It can be very difficult, but in general it isn't. I will say, when playing Storm King's Thunder, we encountered a powerful blue dragon, and finding out that my Halfling needed to roll a 19 on the die (even with advantage) to save against it's fear aura was an eye opening experience. That a natural 20 doesn't automatically succeed on a saving throw means you can and will encounter a save you cannot make in due time (Paladins and high-level Monks notwithstanding).

There are ways to mitigate this, but again, it requires having optional features toggled on, or having the right guy with the right ability in your party. Which is the point I'm trying to make here.

As I see it, since character permadeath and losing encounters is really really rare (and I can't even remember when or even if this was ever clearly due to how saves work) this comes across as a theoretical complaint.

You not having even a small chance of making a save isn't in of itself a dealbreaker.

It's only if this causes you to lose fights we can start discussing something as broken. As long as you keep winning fights, having to face automatic failure is just a challenge to be overcome!