D&D (2024) 2024 needs to end 2014's passive aggressive efforts to remove magic items & other elements from d&d

[tetrasodium]

Watching the comeliness/charisma vortex keeps reminding me of eyerolling & groaning finger pointing often directed at Shojo/Bishonen/etc type anime fanservice style scenes/characters & it's common twilighty tropes. I think that a lot of the discussion is getting shredded in attempting to justify something that was never very well defined, anime (especially those genres) tend to nicely split everything that is characters from a second group that is simply the beautiful elite who have all of the same perks but through a totally different route. It certainly doesn't help that charisma is so uselessly overbroad & nakedly gamified/simulationist that even tvtropes has trouble describing it.

I could possibly see some types of games & NPCs benefitting from a well defined distinction between charisma & beautiful elite(comeliness), villain types especially. An addition like that would have a huge impact on the game itself though & probably not a particularly good one given how many cringe to downright negative stereotypes/subtropes are often firmly rooted in beautiful elite types. This might be more useful as a way of drawing a line where an attribute that should never have existed in a role playing game crosses into being something entirely different

 

[Melfast]

Picking a lock is both the Slight of Hand skill and the Thief toolset, hence Proficiency with Advantage.

For cooking I use Performance for artistic esthetic appeal.

I get much use from toolset proficiency, by associating it with ANYTHING relating to the toolset, such as astronomy for Cartographer toolset. In general, skills are breadth of knowledge and toolsets are depth of specialization.

Technically, I think picking a lock or deactivating a trap are Dexterity checks, and not Sleight of Hand checks (neither of those two checks are listed under Sleight of Hand in the PHB). However, they are listed as actions under the Thieves Tools section in the PHB. So, I think you only get to add your proficiency bonus when using Thieves Tools to do one of those things. You can use any tool, but if you don't have proficiency in them, you don't get to add your proficiency bonus of get any special benefits for having proficiency. Xanathar's expands on the use of tools and skills together. It gives examples of where skills and tools help each other.

 

[Yaarel]

Technically, I think picking a lock or deactivating a trap are Dexterity checks, and not Sleight of Hand checks (neither of those two checks are listed under Sleight of Hand in the PHB). However, they are listed as actions under the Thieves Tools section in the PHB. So, I think you only get to add your proficiency bonus when using Thieves Tools to do one of those things. You can use any tool, but if you don't have proficiency in them, you don't get to add your proficiency bonus of get any special benefits for having proficiency. Xanathar's expands on the use of tools and skills together. It gives examples of where skills and tools help each other.

On rereading the Sleight of Hand description, your understanding is fair enough.

Even so, I call for Sleight of Hand checks for anything that requires precise manual dexterity. That includes picking a lock, disarming a trap, and on rare occasions when the adding of a potion ingredient or the writing of a magical sigil must be done perfectly.

 

[James Gasik]

Technically, I think picking a lock or deactivating a trap are Dexterity checks, and not Sleight of Hand checks (neither of those two checks are listed under Sleight of Hand in the PHB). However, they are listed as actions under the Thieves Tools section in the PHB. So, I think you only get to add your proficiency bonus when using Thieves Tools to do one of those things. You can use any tool, but if you don't have proficiency in them, you don't get to add your proficiency bonus of get any special benefits for having proficiency. Xanathar's expands on the use of tools and skills together. It gives examples of where skills and tools help each other.

Actually, you need to use Thieves' Tools to open a lock, as per the PHB, so it can't even be done without proficiency:

 

[Melfast]

Actually, you need to use Thieves' Tools to open a lock, as per the PHB, so it can't even be done without proficiency:
View attachment 341385

This is one of those weird things that I've only seen clarified by JC and Mearls tweets. They said anyone can use a tool to try and pick a lock or disarm a trap (since nothing in the rules appears to require proficiency to use a tool), but you only get the proficiency bonus if you are trained. That said, they also said that the specific overrules the general, and where a particular lock or trap requires you to be proficient, then you have to be proficient to do it. I tend to agree with your view, that you need to be proficient to get the benefit of a tool -- maybe you could use it with disadvantage. I think the reasoning is not to leave a party with no options if they don't have a PC with the right tool proficiency.

 

[James Gasik]

This is one of those weird things that I've only seen clarified by JC and Mearls tweets. They said anyone can use a tool to try and pick a lock or disarm a trap (since nothing in the rules appears to require proficiency to use a tool), but you only get the proficiency bonus if you are trained. That said, they also said that the specific overrules the general, and where a particular lock or trap requires you to be proficient, then you have to be proficient to do it. I tend to agree with your view, that you need to be proficient to get the benefit of a tool -- maybe you could use it with disadvantage. I think the reasoning is not to leave a party with no options if they don't have a PC with the right tool proficiency.

Oh I hadn't heard of any clarification, this got brought up in a thread sometime last year about DM's gating skill checks behind proficiency, and locks were used as precedent.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I feel like the attributes are ultimately pointless. A fighter, for example, should be "reasonably" strong in the worst case. We define a base level of capacity to which all fighters adhere at their worst and we then give the fighter things, perhaps something like class feats, which can improve above this baseline.

This means no fighter, for example, is weak, just like no wizard is stupid or no bard is a wallflower.

Skills should depend on class entirely and not on a mixture of class and attributes.

Pathfinder 2E is kinda going in this direction by giving players 100% control over their attributes.

What about min atttributes for different classes, even when not multiclassing.

Lets try some arbitrary numbers: str 9 for fighters, int 9 for wizards, wis 9 for clerics. Dex 9 for thieves... i meant rogues.
For bards, probably 12 dexterity, 13 int and 15 charisma would be appropriate. And so on....

 

[corwyn77]

On rereading the Sleight of Hand description, your understanding is fair enough.

Even so, I call for Sleight of Hand checks for anything that requires precise manual dexterity. That includes picking a lock, disarming a trap, and on rare occasions when the adding of a potion ingredient or the writing of a magical sigil must be done perfectly.

So what do you use tools prof for?

 

[Yaarel]

So what do you use tools prof for?

A toolset check includes anything related to it. Example, a Mount or a Vehicle is a kind of toolset. If a Mount, such as a horse, it includes the history of horses, famous horses, diagnosing the health of horses, tips for speed and carrying, and care, haggling on the price of purchasing or selling a horse, making and repairing horse shoes, saddles, saddlebags, horse armor barding, and so on. The toolset represents the depth of knowledge relating to a specialization. By contrast, the Animal Handling skill applies more broadly to any kinds of animals, such as a zoo keeper, but shallower in regard to the interactions with animals.

 

[Yaarel]

So what do you use tools prof for?

Regarding the Sleight of Hand skill versus the Thief toolset.

I use Sleight of Hand for any challenge requiring precise manual dexterity. By contrast, the Thief toolset is the science of crime, and its arms race of security systems and how to bypass them.