D&D (2024) 2024 PHB Race discussion

[DEFCON 1]

I've been hoping for the removal of Half-Elf and Half-Orc for quite a while now, because quite frankly my experiences with them have been people taking these races purely for the game mechanics and the players couldn't give a rat's ass about the narrative and story about being a mixed race person.

So in my mind... these new rules are a good thing. Because it's going to show us pretty clearly how many people actually want to play with the narrative of being a mixed-heritage character when they won't be gaining any game rule bonuses for doing it. If it ends up that most people end up just playing Elves and Orcs and don't bother with narratively creating Half-Elves and Half-Orcs... then my beliefs would be proven correct.

That being said... I certainly hope most DMs remember when the time comes that this whole game is being set up to allow for the 2014 material to still be used, so there would be absolutely no reason to not allow a player to use the Half-Elf or Half-Orc race write-ups in a 2024 game.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Similarly, the Spelljammer astral elf is solid.

But the playtest elf is weaker than it.

The playtest high elf is actually slightly better than 2014, but it was so terrible to begin with.

I don't get this at all.

The playtest High Elf looks great to me, and the idea that the PHB elf was "terrible" is absolutely wild. The Spelljammer Elf and various other Misty Step-alike spamming elves are more outright powerful but this is pretty solid.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't get this at all.

The playtest High Elf looks great to me, and the idea that the PHB elf was "terrible" is absolutely wild. The Spelljammer Elf and various other Misty Step-alike spamming elves are more outright powerful but this is pretty solid.

The improved speed is powerful in my experience, and the 2014 wood elf is solid.

In comparison, the 2014 high elf merely got a cantrip. (Plus in those days, the high elf only got a +1 Intelligence, making it a mediocre Wizard, whose flavor the high elf was supposed to be good at.) Over all the 2014 high elf is an eyesore.

For the playtest. If I can choose between the Spelljammer astral elf versus the playtest high elf, there is no hesitation. The astral elf is superior.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I've been hoping for the removal of Half-Elf and Half-Orc for quite a while now, because quite frankly my experiences with them have been people taking these races purely for the game mechanics and the players couldn't give a rat's ass about the narrative and story about being a mixed race person.

So in my mind... these new rules are a good thing. Because it's going to show us pretty clearly how many people actually want to play with the narrative of being a mixed-heritage character when they won't be gaining any game rule bonuses for doing it. If it ends up that most people end up just playing Elves and Orcs and don't bother with narratively creating Half-Elves and Half-Orcs... then my beliefs would be proven correct.

That being said... I certainly hope most DMs remember when the time comes that this whole game is being set up to allow for the 2014 material to still be used, so there would be absolutely no reason to not allow a player to use the Half-Elf or Half-Orc race write-ups in a 2024 game.

I gotta be honest, this sounds like a not-great attitude on your part.

In many settings, Half-Elves at the least aren't in the same situation as mixed-race people IRL. Hell in some you have some who are and some who aren't. Like, in Taladas, an Armach-Nesti Half-Elf is very much in that situation, but a Tamire Steppe Half-Elf isn't having the same experience at all, because he's part of a culture that's mostly Half-Elves (and a large and successful one). So this demand that every person playing a Half-Elf must be interested in that narrative seems strange and bordering on the repugnant. It's like demanding every Dwarf player be telling a story about hearth and family, or every Halfling has to be a story about how they left home and are unusual for adventuring. Like one-true-wayism for how you play a race, but only applied to certain ones.

As for people not bothering narratively creating X, well, I mean that doesn't really prove much, because a vast number of races are picked for more mechanical than thematic reasons, and this would make that obvious with those two races, but frankly the same thing is happening with every single race that isn't a total obvious screaming disaster, mechanically. And even with people picking races for RP reasons, many pick them to in fact play "against type" in my experience.

I mean, I know I'll still be playing Half-Elves because I just personally do not enjoy playing Elves, but mechanically I'll probably just use the Elf rules.

EDIT - I am definitely biased here to be clear - I've played Half-Elves more than any other race in D&D (Tieflings would be next) - but I felt Tanis in Dragonlance really basically did the whole "torn between two worlds" subplot absolutely to DEATH and the very last thing I wanted be was some Tanis-esque fart "trapped between two worlds" (and utterly cliched with it). Aragorn didn't help either (being in D&D terms basically a Half-Elf whereas Elrond Half-Elven is in D&D terms pretty clearly a solid Elf). Expecting people to be interested in playing that up is like expecting every Drow PC to basically be a variant on Drizzt, imho. I always pray for the precise opposite when I see a Drow PC at my table.

 

[Yaarel]

The elf format needs to be as versatile and as reusable as possible, in order to prevent the future occurrence of 100+ elf subraces. Each choice in the 2024 Players Handbook for "elf" needs to be as saliently different from each other as possible, in order to reasonably represent more of the very many different kinds of elf.



With regard to flavor, not balance. I dont like darkvision on the high elf.

High elf: normal vision
Wood elf: darkvision
Drow elf: extended darkvision

Change Darkvision into a cantrip. Let any mage who wants it take it. Let anyone who doesnt want it, swap it for an other cantrip.

So, the wood elf gains the Darkvision cantrip. The drow elf gains the cantrip and spices it.

But give the high elf a different cantrip or something else.

Likewise, change Waterbreathing into a cantrip.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

For the playtest. If I can choose between the Spelljammer astral elf versus the playtest high elf, there is no hesitation. The astral elf is superior.

I guess I'm too much of a roleplayer lol, I could never see myself taking the Astral Elf given their ridiculous background and (to me) silly appearance (really not into the black sclera thing). Shadar-Kai maybe.

With regard to flavor, not balance. I dont like darkvision on the high elf.

High elf: normal vision

High Elves exist in dozens of settings (literally) and in all of them they've had Infravision or Low-Light Vision, which in 5E is just Darkvision. In some cases significant parts of their lore rely on them having it (not all, I admit). How would that possibly make sense outside of a homebrew race for your own setting?

 

[Yaarel]

I guess I'm too much of a roleplayer lol, I could never see myself taking the Astral Elf given their ridiculous background and (to me) silly appearance (really not into the black sclera thing). Shadar-Kai maybe.

As long as the Players Handbook doesnt keep on mentioning "black sclera" in almost every reference to the elf on every page, indirectly or directly, I can try to ignore that. I dont mind the 4e solid eyes. And if the solid eyes are like skyey lapis lazuli with starry gleams, that can be appealing.

In any case, I view the astral elf as solar, associating the sun. Indeed, a star is a sun. So I would be going for sun-related flavor for the elf.

High Elves exist in dozens of settings (literally) and in all of them they've had Infravision or Low-Light Vision, which in 5E is just Darkvision. In some cases significant parts of their lore rely on them having it (not all, I admit). How would that possibly make sense outside of a homebrew race for your own setting?

I get that. But.

I view the traditional high elf − 1e and 3e − as pretty much identical to the playtest wood elf anyway.

In order to minimize the design space as much as possible, the third elf needs to be able to reasonably represent the many other kinds of exotic elf. It helps if it lacks darkvision. A player who wants it can select it as a cantrip.

The three kinds of elves in the players handbook are occupying precious design space and must be as meaningfully different from each other as possible.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In any case, I view the astral elf as solar, associating the sun. Indeed, a star is a sun. So I would be going for sun-related flavor for the elf.

Astral literally means of the stars, not of the sun (which would indeed be "solar"). So that is pretty wild. It's a bit like reading "Hill Dwarf" and thinking "So they live in the mountains".

In order to minimize the design space as much as possible

This is not a goal WotC has. Very game design companies go for it, and even fewer successful ones. Maximalism sells a lot better than minimalism. Minimalists are profoundly unlikely to be willingly playing 5E, I would suggest.

 

[Corinnguard]

One way to make the three kinds of elves in the PHB to be meaningfully different from each other is to turn some of their cultural fluff into cultural crunch. High Elf culture isn't the same as Wood Elf culture or even Dark Elf culture. This needs to be made more evident in D&D.

 

[Yaarel]

This is not a goal WotC has. Very game design companies go for it, and even fewer successful ones. Maximalism sells a lot better than minimalism. Minimalists are profoundly unlikely to be willingly playing 5E, I would suggest.

The elves are a special case.

In D&D, the elves are inseparable from the D&D traditions. And. The elves are so diverse from each other. Many players have their favorite version of elf from somewhere in the 100+ elf traditions.

It helps more players, to make the Players Handbook elf race entry, as accommodating and as versatile as possible.

I want 2024 to both represent the D&D elf traditions and avoid unnecessarily more and more design space for each one.

So, the solution needs to be an elegant design, that is as simple as possible but not simpler, and that is minimal but versatile.

Astral literally means of the stars, not of the sun (which would indeed be "solar"). So that is pretty wild. It's a bit like reading "Hill Dwarf" and thinking "So they live in the mountains".

A hill is a small mountain. A star is actually a sun. Possibly, Spelljammer kept the traditional solar and lunar dragons but omitted the "star dragon" because it is, of course, solar.