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D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world


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pwhimp

Villager
1) "You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or Humanoid that is within range for the entire Casting Time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take Actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any Equipment. Otherwise, the Illusion uses all the Statistics of the creature it duplicates."

Simulacrum is a construct that has your statistic. It doesn't have any goal or personalities.

Their personalities and goals


2) When you turn a Simulacrum into a True Polymorph.
"If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it."

The Wizard no longer control them.
I think you're misunderstanding. The simulacrum casts dream on the true polymorphed wizard.

I also realized that dispelling true polymorph isn't necessary. The beholders can just bite you until you drop the form. Save those valuable spell slots.

If you can glyph of warding a dream on yourself then you don't even need the simulacrum.
 

Hohige

Explorer
I think you're misunderstanding. The simulacrum casts dream on the true polymorphed wizard.

I also realized that dispelling true polymorph isn't necessary. The beholders can just bite you until you drop the form. Save those valuable spell slots.

If you can glyph of warding a dream on yourself then you don't even need the simulacrum.
The Simulacrum doesn't control the Wizard
Well, The Beholder defeats the Simulacrum.
The Wizard is a Beholder.
 

pwhimp

Villager
The Simulacrum doesn't control the Wizard
Well, The Beholder defeats the Simulacrum.
Why? True polymorph doesn't change the mind, just the body. The true polymorphed wizard wouldn't kill their simulacrum and the new beholders share the original's personality and goals
 

ccooke

Adventurer
So, let's see... 57 hit points?

And we're allowed to know roughly where he is, but not exactly because he's a "master of disguise", right?

Sleep.

Sleep will always target the creature with the lowest number of HP in its area first. All the minions have at least 60-odd, so as long as you pick an area within 20' of the sorcerer, they're getting targeted first.

Sleep will put to sleep 5d8 hp worth of creatures and has no save. It's all or nothing, so unless you meet or exceed their current total, nothing happens.
If you cast it at higher levels, you get an extra 2d8 worth of HP per slot, though.

If you cast Sleep at 9th level, that's 21d8. Running the numbers... 21d8 has a 99.990% chance of rolling 57 or higher. Even an 8th level slot has a 99.8% chance of working.

(We've seen that the magic jar trick doesn't work, so he's still an Aasimar and not immune to magical sleep. Obviously you cast it when Mind Blank is not active, as has been discussed. I am entirely happy to provide a silly and contrived method for how a character can get within range to cast this spell, anyway)

I honestly think that sleep is the most humane thing to do to this poor character. Don't even do anything afterwards - just make the poor thing sleep on a surface for a little bit. Maybe provide a blanket?

I'm sure in the morning, everything will look much better. If someone hasn't used the opportunity to cast meteor swarm, anyway.
 

Hohige

Explorer
Why? True polymorph doesn't change the mind, just the body. The true polymorphed wizard wouldn't kill their simulacrum and the new beholders share the original's personality and goals
No. Just alignment and personality.
Without memory and knowledge. Well the Simulacrum is dead and the Wizard is a Beholder

Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
 

FireLance

Legend
Ok, let's recap.

The sorcerer has 60 galvan magen, reducing his hit points by 180.

The sorcerer remains in his original body because magic jar doesn't work that way.

The sorcerer does not have a simulacrum of a drow matron mother because that would be outside the scope the character's abilities.

The Diviner wizard has discovered his identity with a good Intelligence (Investigation) check and has been harassing the sorcerer every night with dream.

The sorcerer has finally had enough! On a day after he makes his saving throw against the dream and has recovered all his spell slots, sorcery points and hit points, he emerges from his lair and starts randomly destroying stuff because he doesn't know who the wizard is. Now the wizard can engage him directly.

The wizard has used a wish to cast find greater steed, giving him a pegasus. They fly to the sorcerer and when they get close, the wizard uses his 9th level slot to cast invulnerability, which is shared with the pegasus. The pegasus has a fly speed of 90 feet and easily outpaces any of the sorcerer's minions, keeping a distance of about 120 feet from the sorcerer's group at all times. This puts the wizard out of range from anything but the celestial spirits' ranged attacks and the sorcerer and the simulacrum's spells which deal no damage because of invulnerability.

The wizard then proceeds to unload his daily complement of attack spells. Every galvan magen killed is a galvan magen the sorcerer can't get back because he has no more hit points left. If the sorcerer and his minions aren't all dead by then, the wizard flies off, keeping one 5th-level spell slot for dream, and repeats this the next day.
 
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Of course. I hope you too will be able to defeat HUN-HAT! I have all confidence.

Meanwhile, here is my course of action for the situation mentionned above.


Everything occurs like in the Alfred post up until the moment he casts Scrying. The locator appear, being seen as a glowing luminous ball by creatures that can see invisibility. Knowing somehow it's a threat, HUN-HAT engages his usual behaviour in that case: he asks the drow matron mother to cast her unique and non renewable Summon Retriever and order her to run toward Alfred. The HUN-HAT takes not of the bearing and starts destroying everything on his path, seemingly ready to do that for the next few months.

Alfred then had a pause, while facing his mirror revealing the surrounding of the HUN-HAT. He knew the girl. Her once-fierce look had subsided, replaced by a demeanor of subserviance, but he recognized her fine black skin and her silky white hair. It was Eilirilia... she hadn't changed over the past 40 years... Then, Alfred wept. He had thought the avatar of Ilmater knocking on his door was a prank. But no. It was not. Ilmater really spoke to him, not because he wanted the HUN-HAT dead, that's of little consequence. He wanted to see how his selfishness in his love affair led Eilirilia to a life of unhappiness. The god of compassion had wanted to give him a last chance to correct his course of action and make things right. Alfred sighed and decided to free Eilirilia from the sociopathic destroyer (since he wept for two round and swore for one, HUN-HAT was at this time destroying an anthill 160 feet from his original position.

"Simulacrum, I order you to kill this guy. I want him dead. I must learn what he did to Eilirilia but he must pay so I'll go the easy way of asking his corpse. Use every means available. Walk the Path of Extreme Prejudice".

During round 5 to 10, the Simulacrum goes to the basement and make a careful path among it chanting words of power that were triggers for empowering glyphs of warding woven into the pattern of the carpet, for situations of emergency, hence the nickname his master has devised. Rarely did he allow the use of it, but today was a special day, and he seemed moved by what he saw in the mirror. Once buffed by the glyphs, who had been created over the past years (prep time), he was the subject of Greater Invisibility, See Invisibility, Far Step, Fly, Mind Blank, Intellect Fortress, Protection from Energy, Haste, True Seeing and Protection from Cameras (the latter being a really obscure scroll Alfred had copied from a tome in Candlekeep, never really understanding its use but as a Wizard is always prepared, it was integrated into the spell glyph pattern). He was ready to perform its task an signalled his presence to Alfred, whose eyes were still locked on the mirror, with grief and pain on his face.

Alfred cast Demiplane, opening the rift between worlds and reaching for his extraplanar laboratory, a supernatural extension of his cottage's closet where his treasures were stored. Both Alfred and the simulacrum entered, while Alfred gave the last orders that would seal the HUN-HAT's fate. "You can go now", did he say, opening a Gate to the material plane again, on the precise location above the HUN-HAT groups. Then Simulacrum crossed the Gate as a move action, finding himself floating above the group. The Simulacrum's mission was to kill HUN-HAT but avoid harming Eilirilia. He wouldn't disappoint his master. He would neutralize the HUN-HAT, who was clearly distinguished from his Simulacrum by the fact that the Scrying Locator was hovering over him, a telling glowing ball of light. Forcecage does not require concentration and Alfred's simulacrum made the bet the sorceror had less capacity to planeshift or teleport than he could withstand uses of Convergent Future to make him miss his saving throws, still expanding the spell slot. As a bonus action, he far stepped 60 feet up. In effect, at most he would have to spend a single use of it, since only Demiplace could qualify as a way to exit the cage.

It was obvious the Eilirilia was a Simulacrum herself, given that she adopted the same behaviour of attacking Alfred's Simulacrum as the HUN-HAT's simulacrum. With a flying speed of 30 ft, even Extended Finger of Death or Power words wouldn't reach the Simulacrum this round. Plus, the Simulacrum can't see invisibility unless he spends some time casting it. It will be a problem the next round. The fake Eilirilia was lacking any meaningful way to see invisible creatures and could only levitate upward clumsily she wouldn't be a threat to reach an invisible attacker able to take a move action and an additional Dash action of 60 ft, plus a far step of 60 feet, and still cast a spell. Carefully staying outside of counterspelling or extended dispell magic range (240 ft, this one is nasty), plus move, at the end of his turn, Alfred's Simulacrum decides to lob a fireball at the group, hurting magens and severely injuring the Simulacrum as he had just cast See Invisibility, before finishing them off on the latter rounds (spending 3rd and 4th level slots). At some point, Eilirelia would be floating slowly, lone survivor of the split group and since the goal wasn't to hurt her, Alfred's simulacrum would use his superior manoeuverability to fly around her and Feeblemind HUN-HAT (expanding his lone 8th level spell and possibly a second convergent future to ensure success). It could harm his move speed, but speed was only useful to split the group and at this point it was no longer needed (in the extraordinary event of a successful INT save) and potentially a third to ensure the failure of the counterspelling. With a CHA and INT of 1 for the next 30 days, he won't be a threat while Alfred's simulacrum kills him with cantrip through the bar of the forcecage.

"Satisfying..." said Alfred again poring over his silvery mirror... "This might not exactly be what Ilmater wanted as outcome but hey..." It is a slow death (though unexplicably, the HUN-HAT died very quickly... how could he have so few hit points? He shoudln't have made a Simulacrum of Eilirilia without her consent. Her body, her choice.

He'd have to recreate a Simulacrum anew to replace his tired butler, but that would be a task for tomorrow. Right now, it is time to make some herbal tea: Binky will arrive soon for tea and biscuits and he might be interested to learn about the strange events of the day.


HUN-HAT has been killed by Alfred, dying of cantrip, without him bothering to leave the comfort of his own home.
 
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Hohige

Explorer
Ok, let's recap.

The sorcerer has 60 galvan magen, reducing his hit points by 180.

The soecerer remains in his original body because magic jar doesn't work that way.

The sorcerer does not have a simulacrum of a drow matron mother because that would be outside the scope the character's abilities.

The Diviner wizard has discovered his identity with a good Intelligence (Investigation) check and has been harassing the sorcerer every night with dream.

The sorcerer has finally had enough! On a day after he makes his saving throw against the dream and has recovered all his spell slots, sorcery points and hit points, he emerges from his lair and starts randomly destroying stuff because he doesn't know who the wizard is. Now the wizard can engage him directly.

The wizard has used a wish to cast find greater steed, giving him a pegasus. They fly to the sorcerer and when they get close, the wizard uses his 9th level slot to cast invulnerability, which is shared with the pegasus. The pegasus has a fly speed of 90 feet and easily outpaces any of the sorcerer's minions, keeping a distance of about 120 feet from the sorcerer's group at all times. This puts the wizard out of range from anything but the celestial spirits' ranged attacks and the sorcerer and the simulacrum's spells which deal no damage because of invulnerability.

The wizard then proceeds to unload his daily complement of attack spells. Every galvan magen killed is a galvan magen the sorcerer can't get back because he has no more hit points left. If the sorcerer and his minions aren't all dead by then, the wizard flies off, keeping one 5th-level spell slot for dream, and repeats this the next day.
Nice. I like It. Complete your build. Feats, race, prepared spells.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Build it first. You just spent a 9th slot on this dead one. Celestial doesn't know who the Sorcerer is.
Sure he does! The sorcerer has been dispelled, so it's easy to pick him out. Wizard summons, say "kill that one," and it's done.
The Sorcerer attacks at 660ft. It's out Celestial Range.
Well, no, we're at 120'. I mean you quoted where all this happened and asked how I'd get tgrpugh your 26 hitpoints, remember? I messed up and went with the 56 from Aid, so, yeah, could have used a 9th level magic missle. I firget, do ypu know Shield? Ah, probably best to stick with the irnoy. Or... use Horrid Wilting. Man, what a service! Your Sorcerer just rehabilitated Hirrid Wilting!
My celestials kill him quickly.
Well, not really. They're uncommanded since your dearh, so they dodge and use they're move to avoid danger.
Now, the Wizard is dead.
Oh, who killed him?
His damage cannot defeat the Sorcerer's HP with Warding Bond.
Dude, ypu got dispelled -- you don't have any of that! Again, you've already quoted this part and asked what happens next, so ot's a little late to be reneging on this. Maybe, if I might be so bold, you should read things more carefully?
We deal 260 instant damage to 660ft damage. Well, the Wizard died.
Which we? The Sorcerer died, so the Celestials are off the hook. You've got to be more specific, man.
I wished Celestial. Next turn. Sorcerer alpha strike. The Wizard is dead.
You wished... with what spell slot?!
 

Sure he does! The sorcerer has been dispelled, so it's easy to pick him out. Wizard summons, say "kill that one," and it's done.

Well, no, we're at 120'. I mean you quoted where all this happened and asked how I'd get tgrpugh your 26 hitpoints, remember? I messed up and went with the 56 from Aid, so, yeah, could have used a 9th level magic missle. I firget, do ypu know Shield? Ah, probably best to stick with the irnoy. Or... use Horrid Wilting. Man, what a service! Your Sorcerer just rehabilitated Hirrid Wilting!

In a first version of Alfred's simulacrum air strike, I thought of Horrid Wilting, but I felt it was more humiliating, in Alfred's mind, to be taken down by cantrips. Nice thoughts anyway!

You wished... with what spell slot?!

He is trying to place limit on simulacra right now. I am all ears because there will be a point when he could be killed by his own simulacrum.
 

He'd have to recreate a Simulacrum anew to replace his tired butler, but that would be a task for tomorrow. Right now, it is time to make some herbal tea: Binky will arrive soon for tea and biscuits and he might be interested to learn about the strange events of the day.
Binky: I am extremely impressed, I think I may write a sequel the story about you and Eilirilia, I hope you do not mind.
Alfred: Same royalty deal?
Binky: Of course my friend, the Candlekeep Book Club has been pestering me for a sequel for a couple of years now.
Alfred: You will have to spice up that sorcerer as a villain I think, he was creepy, in a sad and pathetic way, but not really scary.
Binky: The tea is excellent, did you grow it yourself?

Fade to black....
 

Hohige

Explorer
Sure he does! The sorcerer has been dispelled, so it's easy to pick him out. Wizard summons, say "kill that one," and it's done.

Well, no, we're at 120'. I mean you quoted where all this happened and asked how I'd get tgrpugh your 26 hitpoints, remember? I messed up and went with the 56 from Aid, so, yeah, could have used a 9th level magic missle. I firget, do ypu know Shield? Ah, probably best to stick with the irnoy. Or... use Horrid Wilting. Man, what a service! Your Sorcerer just rehabilitated Hirrid Wilting!

Well, not really. They're uncommanded since your dearh, so they dodge and use they're move to avoid danger.

Oh, who killed him?

Dude, ypu got dispelled -- you don't have any of that! Again, you've already quoted this part and asked what happens next, so ot's a little late to be reneging on this. Maybe, if I might be so bold, you should read things more carefully?

Which we? The Sorcerer died, so the Celestials are off the hook. You've got to be more specific, man.

You wished... with what spell slot?!

:oops:
Let me see if I understood.
Is your Wizard fighting the Demigod build?

You are simply ignoring the Demigod's defenses and tatics.


1) Let's recap.
You are fighting a highly efficient creature in disguise and you cannot know who the real caster is.

2) He is surrounded by powerful minions that simply kill any Wizard instantly.
With a general command (He doesn't have to be giving command all the time).
"Protect me with your best abilities and defeat any creatures other than us."
Even if the Sorcerer is knocked out, his command remains.

3) And all of your minions have long range, fly and can instantly kill a Wizard 660ft.

4) Do not think that you will simply approach and cast a spell, without first explaining in detail how you will approach, recognize the target and not be killed right away.

5) Everything seems very easy with all the spells, feats, races and subclasses available, assemble a complete build and you will see that it will lose 80% of its theoretical power.

"Sure he does! The sorcerer has been dispelled, so it's easy to pick him out. Wizard summons, say "kill that one," and it's done."

Read 1, 2, 3 and 5.

No, you can't cast dispel him.


"Well, no, we're at 120'. I mean you quoted where all this happened and asked how I'd get tgrpugh your 26 hitpoints, remember? I messed up and went with the 56 from Aid, so, yeah, could have used a 9th level magic missle. I firget, do ypu know Shield? Ah, probably best to stick with the irnoy. Or... use Horrid Wilting. Man, what a service! Your Sorcerer just rehabilitated Hirrid Wilting!"


No, you are not at 120ft.
You are dead long before you get it. Read all numbers.

"Well, not really. They're uncommanded since your dearh, so they dodge and use they're move to avoid danger.

Oh, who killed him?

Dude, ypu got dispelled -- you don't have any of that! Again, you've already quoted this part and asked what happens next, so ot's a little late to be reneging on this. Maybe, if I might be so bold, you should read things more carefully?

Which we? The Sorcerer died, so the Celestials are off the hook. You've got to be more specific, man."


Nothing about It Works.


"You wished... with what spell slot?!"

You wished for the celestial, not the sorcerer.

The celestial cannot reach the sorcerer by numbers 1 to 4. And even if it were, it would be useless. Sanctuary spell blocks any potential efficient attacks.



If you do not complete your build, you will have no answer for obvious reasons.
 
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Gammadoodler

Adventurer
:oops:
Let me see if I understood.
Is your Wizard fighting the Demigod build?

You are simply ignoring the Demigod's defenses and tatics.


1) Let's recap.
You are fighting a highly efficient creature in disguise and you cannot know who the real caster is.

2) He is surrounded by powerful minions that simply kill any Wizard instantly.
With a general command (He doesn't have to be giving command all the time).
"Protect me with your best abilities and defeat any creatures other than us."
Even if the Sorcerer is knocked out, his command remains.

3) And all of your minions have long range, fly and can instantly kill a Wizard 660ft.

4) Do not think that you will simply approach and cast a spell, without first explaining in detail how you will approach, recognize the target and not be killed right away.

5) Everything seems very easy with all the spells, feats, races and subclasses available, assemble a complete build and you will see that it will lose 80% of its theoretical power.

"Sure he does! The sorcerer has been dispelled, so it's easy to pick him out. Wizard summons, say "kill that one," and it's done."

Read 1, 2, 3 and 5.

No, you cast dispel him.


"Well, no, we're at 120'. I mean you quoted where all this happened and asked how I'd get tgrpugh your 26 hitpoints, remember? I messed up and went with the 56 from Aid, so, yeah, could have used a 9th level magic missle. I firget, do ypu know Shield? Ah, probably best to stick with the irnoy. Or... use Horrid Wilting. Man, what a service! Your Sorcerer just rehabilitated Hirrid Wilting!"


No, you are not at 120ft.
You are dead long before you get it. Read all numbers.

"Well, not really. They're uncommanded since your dearh, so they dodge and use they're move to avoid danger.

Oh, who killed him?

Dude, ypu got dispelled -- you don't have any of that! Again, you've already quoted this part and asked what happens next, so ot's a little late to be reneging on this. Maybe, if I might be so bold, you should read things more carefully?

Which we? The Sorcerer died, so the Celestials are off the hook. You've got to be more specific, man."


Nothing about It Works.


"You wished... with what spell slot?!"

You wished for the celestial, not the sorcerer.

The celestial cannot reach the sorcerer by numbers 1 to 4. And even if it were, it would be useless. Sanctuary spell blocks any potential efficient attacks.
It really is like arguing at a bar..

"No, no, no you don't understand it's all right here like I showed you.."

"Dude...that's a dirty napkin, and there's snot in it."

Also worth noting.."It's all there in the first post" (Edited Today at 10:04PM)
 
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Hohige

Explorer
Of course. I hope you too will be able to defeat HUN-HAT! I have all confidence.

Meanwhile, here is my course of action for the situation mentionned above.


Everything occurs like in the Alfred post up until the moment he casts Scrying. The locator appear, being seen as a glowing luminous ball by creatures that can see invisibility. Knowing somehow it's a threat, HUN-HAT engages his usual behaviour in that case: he asks the drow matron mother to cast her unique and non renewable Summon Retriever and order her to run toward Alfred. The HUN-HAT takes not of the bearing and starts destroying everything on his path, seemingly ready to do that for the next few months.

Alfred then had a pause, while facing his mirror revealing the surrounding of the HUN-HAT. He knew the girl. Her once-fierce look had subsided, replaced by a demeanor of subserviance, but he recognized her fine black skin and her silky white hair. It was Eilirilia... she hadn't changed over the past 40 years... Then, Alfred wept. He had thought the avatar of Ilmater knocking on his door was a prank. But no. It was not. Ilmater really spoke to him, not because he wanted the HUN-HAT dead, that's of little consequence. He wanted to see how his selfishness in his love affair led Eilirilia to a life of unhappiness. The god of compassion had wanted to give him a last chance to correct his course of action and make things right. Alfred sighed and decided to free Eilirilia from the sociopathic destroyer (since he wept for two round and swore for one, HUN-HAT was at this time destroying an anthill 160 feet from his original position.

"Simulacrum, I order you to kill this guy. I want him dead. I must learn what he did to Eilirilia but he must pay so I'll go the easy way of asking his corpse. Use every means available. Walk the Path of Extreme Prejudice".

During round 5 to 10, the Simulacrum goes to the basement and make a careful path among it chanting words of power that were triggers for empowering glyphs of warding woven into the pattern of the carpet, for situations of emergency, hence the nickname his master has devised. Rarely did he allow the use of it, but today was a special day, and he seemed moved by what he saw in the mirror. Once buffed by the glyphs, who had been created over the past years (prep time), he was the subject of Greater Invisibility, See Invisibility, Far Step, Fly, Mind Blank, Intellect Fortress, Protection from Energy, Haste, True Seeing and Protection from Cameras (the latter being a really obscure scroll Alfred had copied from a tome in Candlekeep, never really understanding its use but as a Wizard is always prepared, it was integrated into the spell glyph pattern). He was ready to perform its task an signalled his presence to Alfred, whose eyes were still locked on the mirror, with grief and pain on his face.

Alfred cast Demiplane, opening the rift between worlds and reaching for his extraplanar laboratory, a supernatural extension of his cottage's closet where his treasures were stored. Both Alfred and the simulacrum entered, while Alfred gave the last orders that would seal the HUN-HAT's fate. "You can go now", did he say, opening a Gate to the material plane again, on the precise location above the HUN-HAT groups. Then Simulacrum crossed the Gate as a move action, finding himself floating above the group. The Simulacrum's mission was to kill HUN-HAT but avoid harming Eilirilia. He wouldn't disappoint his master. He would neutralize the HUN-HAT, who was clearly distinguished from his Simulacrum by the fact that the Scrying Locator was hovering over him, a telling glowing ball of light. Forcecage does not require concentration and Alfred's simulacrum made the bet the sorceror had less capacity to planeshift or teleport than he could withstand uses of Convergent Future to make him miss his saving throws, still expanding the spell slot. As a bonus action, he far stepped 60 feet up. In effect, at most he would have to spend a single use of it, since only Demiplace could qualify as a way to exit the cage.

It was obvious the Eilirilia was a Simulacrum herself, given that she adopted the same behaviour of attacking Alfred's Simulacrum as the HUN-HAT's simulacrum. With a flying speed of 30 ft, even Extended Finger of Death or Power words wouldn't reach the Simulacrum this round. Plus, the Simulacrum can't see invisibility unless he spends some time casting it. It will be a problem the next round. The fake Eilirilia was lacking any meaningful way to see invisible creatures and could only levitate upward clumsily she wouldn't be a threat to reach an invisible attacker able to take a move action and an additional Dash action of 60 ft, plus a far step of 60 feet, and still cast a spell. Carefully staying outside of counterspelling or extended dispell magic range (240 ft, this one is nasty), plus move, at the end of his turn, Alfred's Simulacrum decides to lob a fireball at the group, hurting magens and severely injuring the Simulacrum as he had just cast See Invisibility, before finishing them off on the latter rounds (spending 3rd and 4th level slots). At some point, Eilirelia would be floating slowly, lone survivor of the split group and since the goal wasn't to hurt her, Alfred's simulacrum would use his superior manoeuverability to fly around her and Feeblemind HUN-HAT (expanding his lone 8th level spell and possibly a second convergent future to ensure success). It could harm his move speed, but speed was only useful to split the group and at this point it was no longer needed (in the extraordinary event of a successful INT save) and potentially a third to ensure the failure of the counterspelling. With a CHA and INT of 1 for the next 30 days, he won't be a threat while Alfred's simulacrum kills him with cantrip through the bar of the forcecage.

"Satisfying..." said Alfred again poring over his silvery mirror... "This might not exactly be what Ilmater wanted as outcome but hey..." It is a slow death (though unexplicably, the HUN-HAT died very quickly... how could he have so few hit points? He shoudln't have made a Simulacrum of Eilirilia without her consent. Her body, her choice.

He'd have to recreate a Simulacrum anew to replace his tired butler, but that would be a task for tomorrow. Right now, it is time to make some herbal tea: Binky will arrive soon for tea and biscuits and he might be interested to learn about the strange events of the day.


HUN-HAT has been killed by Alfred, dying of cantrip, without him bothering to leave the comfort of his own home.
"he asks the drow matron mother to cast her unique and non renewable Summon Retriever"

It beg to disagree, It's 1/day.



"Alfred cast Demiplane, opening the rift between worlds and reaching for his extraplanar laboratory, a supernatural extension of his cottage's closet where his treasures were stored. Both Alfred and the simulacrum entered, while Alfred gave the last orders that would seal the HUN-HAT's fate. "You can go now", did he say, opening a Gate to the material plane again, on the precise location above the HUN-HAT groups. Then Simulacrum crossed the Gate as a move action, finding himself floating above the group. The Simulacrum's mission was to kill HUN-HAT but avoid harming Eilirilia. He wouldn't disappoint his master. He would neutralize the HUN-HAT, who was clearly distinguished from his Simulacrum by the fact that the Scrying Locator was hovering over him, a telling glowing ball of light. Forcecage does not require concentration and Alfred's simulacrum made the bet the sorceror had less capacity to planeshift or teleport than he could withstand uses of Convergent Future to make him miss his saving throws, still expanding the spell slot. As a bonus action, he far stepped 60 feet up. In effect, at most he would have to spend a single use of it, since only Demiplace could qualify as a way to exit the cage."

I was moved by the story. Seu Simulacrum's incredible mission has failed and is now forever imprisoned in his Demiplane.



"who was clearly distinguished from his Simulacrum by the fact that the Scrying Locator was hovering over him, a telling glowing ball of light"

The incredible Alfred's plan failed here. Mind Blanked is immune to divination the Demigod and his Simulacrum (Twinned Mind Blank).
If you use Scrying, Sorcerer and Simulacrum are invisible (Mind Blank) to you.
And they cannot be affected by divination magic.

Poor Simulacrum, killed instantly with 1300 damage.
Spending years of glyph of warding. A sad story from Alfred.

"Forcecage does not require concentration and Alfred's simulacrum made the bet the sorceror had less capacity to planeshift or teleport than he could withstand uses of Convergent Future to make him miss his saving throws, still expanding the spell slot. As a bonus action, he far stepped 60 feet up. In effect, at most he would have to spend a single use of it, since only Demiplace could qualify as a way to exit the cage.''



Is Alfred's incredible strategy to cast Forcecage against the Sorcerer? A Cha based with Dimention Door Spell? For a Wizard, he needs to read more.
Poor Alfred.
When you cast a verbal component. All creatures attacks.



"Alfred's simulacrum would use his superior manoeuverability to fly around her and Feeblemind HUN-HAT (expanding his lone 8th level spell and possibly a second convergent future to ensure success). It could harm his move speed, but speed was only useful to split the group and at this point it was no longer needed (in the extraordinary event of a successful INT save) and potentially a third to ensure the failure of the counterspelling. With a CHA and INT of 1 for the next 30 days, he won't be a threat while Alfred's simulacrum kills him with cantrip through the bar of the forcecage."

Failed again, Mind Blank blocks Feeblemind.



It has numerous flaws in the plan and has no real effect.
Failed to try to use Scrying to find out who Demigod is.
He just failed here.

Suppose he used Forcecage against the sorcerer. (But it can't)
Cast a verbal spell, all creatures deal 1300 instant damage.

Sorcerer or his Simulacrum easily escape from forcecage with Dimension Door.

And Feeblemind is useless against Mind Blank and Simulacrum's Greater Restoration.

Poor Alfred.


It has numerous flaws in the plan and has no real effect.
Failed to try to use Scrying to find out who Demigod is.
He just failed here.

Suppose he used Forcecage against the sorcerer. (But it can't)
Cast a verbal spell, all creatures deal 1300 instant damage.

Sorcerer or his Simulacrum easily escape from forcecage with Dimension Door.

And Feeblemind is useless against Mind Blank and Simulacrum's Greater Restoration.


Poor Alfred.

It has numerous flaws in the plan and has no real effect. Failed to try to use Scrying to find out who Demigod is.
He just failed here. Suppose he used Forcecage against the sorcerer. (But it can't)
Cast a verbal spell just reveals him, all creatures deal 1300 instant damage. Sorcerer or his Simulacrum easily escape from forcecage with Dimension Door.
And Feeblemind is useless against Mind Blank and Simulacrum's Greater Restoration.
Poor Alfred.
 
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Gammadoodler

Adventurer
It occurs to me a basic level 20 Ranger could take care of this. The only 600 ft range applicable is for the celestials, and it's with a long range disadvantage assuming they can even see their quarry.

A Sharpshooter Ranger has no such penalty, and can either dash or hide as a bonus action, as well as apply aoe pressure through something like volley or conjure volley. Base movement is as fast or faster than every single mob the Demigod has at their disposal. The ranger could kite the entire sorcerer's army to death.

...Unless..

The only thing that could close the distance is the demigod using something like dimension door, or burning their Wish spell for mobility. In which case, they'd have to find the bonus action hiding ranger (maybe using tree stride) without the benefit of their army of magen taking constant search actions.
 

Hohige

Explorer
It occurs to me a basic level 20 Ranger could take care of this. The only 600 ft range applicable is for the celestials, and it's with a long range disadvantage assuming they can even see their quarry.

A Sharpshooter Ranger has no such penalty, and can either dash or hide as a bonus action, as well as apply aoe pressure through something like volley or conjure volley. Base movement is as fast or faster than every single mob the Demigod has at their disposal. The ranger could kite the entire sorcerer's army to death.

...Unless..

The only thing that could close the distance is the demigod using something like dimension door, or burning their Wish spell for mobility. In which case, they'd have to find the bonus action hiding ranger (maybe using tree stride) without the benefit of their army of magen taking constant search actions.
Distant Empowered Freezing Sphere hits at 660ft x 2 (The Sorcerer and Simulacrum) + Celestials hits at 600ft.
It's instant death.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
:oops:
Let me see if I understood.
Is your Wizard fighting the Demigod build?

You are simply ignoring the Demigod's defenses and tatics.


1) Let's recap.
You are fighting a highly efficient creature in disguise and you cannot know who the real caster is.
We dealt with this -- he's either in his little hidey hole, and so not even a problem, or he's out. If he's out, then we can scry the group and figure out who the leader is -- he's the one giving orders, the one we can't scry, and one of the two winged creatures.
2) He is surrounded by powerful minions that simply kill any Wizard instantly.
With a general command (He doesn't have to be giving command all the time).
"Protect me with your best abilities and defeat any creatures other than us."
Even if the Sorcerer is knocked out, his command remains.
Yes, accounted for. He has 60 Magen, which leave the Sorcerer with a base of 2 hp, buffed with spells and the Leadership feat. He also has his simulacrum, who doesn't have a 9th level spell slot. He also has the DMM -- which is a heck of a lot of cheese, because it's not the character that does this himself, but whatever, accounted for.

He does, however, only have 1 summoned celestial -- the Simulacrum cannot maintain one without burning through his spell slots -- the lack of the 9th level slot for planar binding is the problem -- best the Sim can do is manage 180 days before starting to have to cycle slots, which they run out of pretty quickly.
3) And all of your minions have long range, fly and can instantly kill a Wizard 660ft.
Which is why the wizard didn't approach from range.
4) Do not think that you will simply approach and cast a spell, without first explaining in detail how you will approach, recognize the target and not be killed right away.
Easy, we know it's one of the two winged medium creatures. The approach is as follows -- the Simulacrum teleports both the Wizard and the Sim to the location, both invisible (concetration by the Sim) and flying (concentration by the Wizard). They appear at exactly 120' from one of the winged medium creatures, with surprise, and the Sim casts a 9th level dispel magic on the target. 50/50 chance. If the target doesn't disappear in a puff of snow, it the sorcerer. If it does puff. the wizard teleports out. Recasts Sim next day. Waits until the Sim reappears in the scrying, and then scrys the sorcerer because they don't have Mind Blank (having used Wish to recast Simulacrum). Attacks again, this time with precise targeting.

If the sorcerer is hit with the dispel the first time, or one the second run, the Wizard casts any damaging spell that deals 26 hitpoints or more -- you can pick it. Sorcerer is dead. Wizard cannot escape counterstrike, if one exists, from the remaining minions, but that's okay, the Wizard has a Clone.
5) Everything seems very easy with all the spells, feats, races and subclasses available, assemble a complete build and you will see that it will lose 80% of its theoretical power.
You can pick the subclass -- doesn't matter. You can pick the spells, so long as I have the ones detailed above -- they don't matter. The Sorcerer is powerful, yes, but only because of his minions, which are his Achilles heel due to the loss of hitpoints. The needed buffs to counter this are the focus of this attack -- dispel the buffs and the sorcerer is very weak.
"Sure he does! The sorcerer has been dispelled, so it's easy to pick him out. Wizard summons, say "kill that one," and it's done."

Read 1, 2, 3 and 5.

No, you can't cast dispel him.
Did, though. Wizard is pretty smart.
"Well, no, we're at 120'. I mean you quoted where all this happened and asked how I'd get tgrpugh your 26 hitpoints, remember? I messed up and went with the 56 from Aid, so, yeah, could have used a 9th level magic missle. I firget, do ypu know Shield? Ah, probably best to stick with the irnoy. Or... use Horrid Wilting. Man, what a service! Your Sorcerer just rehabilitated Hirrid Wilting!"


No, you are not at 120ft.
You are dead long before you get it. Read all numbers.
We teleported there, so... I mean, pay a little bit of attention?
"Well, not really. They're uncommanded since your dearh, so they dodge and use they're move to avoid danger.

Oh, who killed him?

Dude, ypu got dispelled -- you don't have any of that! Again, you've already quoted this part and asked what happens next, so ot's a little late to be reneging on this. Maybe, if I might be so bold, you should read things more carefully?

Which we? The Sorcerer died, so the Celestials are off the hook. You've got to be more specific, man."


Nothing about It Works.
And you haven't given a single reason why. I expect that the general thrust of this response is something like "but he's in his fortress!" which is lame. Stay there -- this character is utterly unimportant if he's in his little fort (which has been detailed how that gets destroyed, but I think your last bit was demiplane, which is also losing).
"You wished... with what spell slot?!"

You wished for the celestial, not the sorcerer.
Weird, you said, "I wished...." So, very confusing.
The celestial cannot reach the sorcerer by numbers 1 to 4. And even if it were, it would be useless. Sanctuary spell blocks any potential efficient attacks.
The celestial was summoned at 120'. As for Sanctuary -- you didn't cast it, because it's not on the list of things you cast that you just provided. Also, even if you did, it's been dispelled.
If you do not complete your build, you will have no answer for obvious reasons.
So far, you haven't come up with anything that actually answers the sketch I've provided -- I don't need a full build because nothing I'm doing relies on any subclass abilities, or on a complete spell list. It's very simple -- it goes directly for your weaknesses, and leverages the fact that the Wizard can cast Sim way more often than you can, and has a Clone, so can engage in whittling you down. Heck, even if we don't scry, I just send the Sim in on a suicide run with teleport, invisibility, and dispel magic -- this destroys a minion every single time without having to be good at targeting. If it hits you, the wizard can see this via the scrying on the Sim he sent, and leap into action with his alpha against your 26 hitpoint and no spells.

Your entire build relies on the minions, which are fragile and subject to destruction, and you cannot rebuild them fast enough (or at all, with regard to the Magen). And your sorcerer completely lacks the ability to actually counterattack the wizard in any way except hoping the wizard comes back to them. You're entirely on the defensive -- the Wizard has the initiative and can dictate the pace of the engagement, which, given you MUST win in one fell swoop because you cannot withstand a protracted attrition fight, means you will lose.
 

Hohige

Explorer
We dealt with this -- he's either in his little hidey hole, and so not even a problem, or he's out. If he's out, then we can scry the group and figure out who the leader is -- he's the one giving orders, the one we can't scry, and one of the two winged creatures.

Yes, accounted for. He has 60 Magen, which leave the Sorcerer with a base of 2 hp, buffed with spells and the Leadership feat. He also has his simulacrum, who doesn't have a 9th level spell slot. He also has the DMM -- which is a heck of a lot of cheese, because it's not the character that does this himself, but whatever, accounted for.

He does, however, only have 1 summoned celestial -- the Simulacrum cannot maintain one without burning through his spell slots -- the lack of the 9th level slot for planar binding is the problem -- best the Sim can do is manage 180 days before starting to have to cycle slots, which they run out of pretty quickly.

Which is why the wizard didn't approach from range.

Easy, we know it's one of the two winged medium creatures. The approach is as follows -- the Simulacrum teleports both the Wizard and the Sim to the location, both invisible (concetration by the Sim) and flying (concentration by the Wizard). They appear at exactly 120' from one of the winged medium creatures, with surprise, and the Sim casts a 9th level dispel magic on the target. 50/50 chance. If the target doesn't disappear in a puff of snow, it the sorcerer. If it does puff. the wizard teleports out. Recasts Sim next day. Waits until the Sim reappears in the scrying, and then scrys the sorcerer because they don't have Mind Blank (having used Wish to recast Simulacrum). Attacks again, this time with precise targeting.

If the sorcerer is hit with the dispel the first time, or one the second run, the Wizard casts any damaging spell that deals 26 hitpoints or more -- you can pick it. Sorcerer is dead. Wizard cannot escape counterstrike, if one exists, from the remaining minions, but that's okay, the Wizard has a Clone.

You can pick the subclass -- doesn't matter. You can pick the spells, so long as I have the ones detailed above -- they don't matter. The Sorcerer is powerful, yes, but only because of his minions, which are his Achilles heel due to the loss of hitpoints. The needed buffs to counter this are the focus of this attack -- dispel the buffs and the sorcerer is very weak.

Did, though. Wizard is pretty smart.

We teleported there, so... I mean, pay a little bit of attention?

And you haven't given a single reason why. I expect that the general thrust of this response is something like "but he's in his fortress!" which is lame. Stay there -- this character is utterly unimportant if he's in his little fort (which has been detailed how that gets destroyed, but I think your last bit was demiplane, which is also losing).

Weird, you said, "I wished...." So, very confusing.

The celestial was summoned at 120'. As for Sanctuary -- you didn't cast it, because it's not on the list of things you cast that you just provided. Also, even if you did, it's been dispelled.

So far, you haven't come up with anything that actually answers the sketch I've provided -- I don't need a full build because nothing I'm doing relies on any subclass abilities, or on a complete spell list. It's very simple -- it goes directly for your weaknesses, and leverages the fact that the Wizard can cast Sim way more often than you can, and has a Clone, so can engage in whittling you down. Heck, even if we don't scry, I just send the Sim in on a suicide run with teleport, invisibility, and dispel magic -- this destroys a minion every single time without having to be good at targeting. If it hits you, the wizard can see this via the scrying on the Sim he sent, and leap into action with his alpha against your 26 hitpoint and no spells.

Your entire build relies on the minions, which are fragile and subject to destruction, and you cannot rebuild them fast enough (or at all, with regard to the Magen). And your sorcerer completely lacks the ability to actually counterattack the wizard in any way except hoping the wizard comes back to them. You're entirely on the defensive -- the Wizard has the initiative and can dictate the pace of the engagement, which, given you MUST win in one fell swoop because you cannot withstand a protracted attrition fight, means you will lose.

"The celestial was summoned at 120'. As for Sanctuary -- you didn't cast it, because it's not on the list of things you cast that you just provided. Also, even if you did, it's been dispelled."

Wished, lose concentration (can't fly) and instant killed after it.


"He does, however, only have 1 summoned celestial -- the Simulacrum cannot maintain one without burning through his spell slots -- the lack of the 9th level slot for planar binding is the problem -- best the Sim can do is manage 180 days before starting to have to cycle slots, which they run out of pretty quickly."

No, It's 2 Celestials.


"Easy, we know it's one of the two winged medium creatures. The approach is as follows -- the Simulacrum teleports both the Wizard and the Sim to the location, both invisible (concetration by the Sim) and flying (concentration by the Wizard). They appear at exactly 120' from one of the winged medium creatures, with surprise, and the Sim casts a 9th level dispel magic on the target. 50/50 chance. If the target doesn't disappear in a puff of snow, it the sorcerer. If it does puff. the wizard teleports out. Recasts Sim next day. Waits until the Sim reappears in the scrying, and then scrys the sorcerer because they don't have Mind Blank (having used Wish to recast Simulacrum). Attacks again, this time with precise targeting."

I strongly disagree.

We have 60 wingless creatures, 2 Winged Medium, 2 Winged Large and a pegasus rider that is clear a caster.
You don't know who your target is. You certainly will attack the clear caster riding a pegasus.

Wrong too, that's not how Surprise works. To be surprised, you need to be successful on the stealth check. And you won't because MMD simulacrum will find you easily. It doesn't matter where you are.
Another problem, you cannot use invisibility and use scrying at the same time. Good luck.
You will be hunted. Now, if you show up, the Galven Magen and Celestials will be ready action to kill you instantly (But, you wouldn't even have a second chance, would you?)?
The MMD Simulacrum's legendary action casts Hold Person. Good lucky.

Now Summon Retriver will find you.
The only thing you're doing is running away.
And Demigod just wait you with Ready actions.

Good lucky.


"Your entire build relies on the minions, which are fragile and subject to destruction, and you cannot rebuild them fast enough (or at all, with regard to the Magen). And your sorcerer completely lacks the ability to actually counterattack the wizard in any way except hoping the wizard comes back to them. You're entirely on the defensive -- the Wizard has the initiative and can dictate the pace of the engagement, which, given you MUST win in one fell swoop because you cannot withstand a protracted attrition fight, means you will lose.""


All of its premises were wrong.
Well, with Disintegrate spell, you will die forever.
Good luck.
 
Last edited:

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
"The celestial was summoned at 120'. As for Sanctuary -- you didn't cast it, because it's not on the list of things you cast that you just provided. Also, even if you did, it's been dispelled."

Wished, lose concentration (can't fly) and instant killed after it.
Right, good catch -- Horrid Wilting is only 8th and has the advantage of taking others with you. The Celestial was a bit of a joke, but it's good you recognize the plan works up until here.
"He does, however, only have 1 summoned celestial -- the Simulacrum cannot maintain one without burning through his spell slots -- the lack of the 9th level slot for planar binding is the problem -- best the Sim can do is manage 180 days before starting to have to cycle slots, which they run out of pretty quickly."

No, It's 2 Celestials.
No, it's really not. You Sim can summon one, yes, with a 8th level slot (necessary to keep up), but then can only use a 7th level slot for the planar binding. This means the Sim is down their 9th, their 8th, their 7th, and at least 1 5th. The 2nd Celestial only lasts 30 days, and then disappears. Then the cycle starts again -- the Sim is now down a second 5th slot, and a 6th slot, to get a tenday. It goes downhill from here, until your Sim is left with only 4th level and lower slots and no 2nd Celestial. And, remember, the Sim cannot use Sorcery points to create spell slots, because Simulacrum expressly forbids regaining spell slots and doesn't make an exception.
"Easy, we know it's one of the two winged medium creatures. The approach is as follows -- the Simulacrum teleports both the Wizard and the Sim to the location, both invisible (concetration by the Sim) and flying (concentration by the Wizard). They appear at exactly 120' from one of the winged medium creatures, with surprise, and the Sim casts a 9th level dispel magic on the target. 50/50 chance. If the target doesn't disappear in a puff of snow, it the sorcerer. If it does puff. the wizard teleports out. Recasts Sim next day. Waits until the Sim reappears in the scrying, and then scrys the sorcerer because they don't have Mind Blank (having used Wish to recast Simulacrum). Attacks again, this time with precise targeting."

I strongly disagree.

We have 60 wingless creatures, 2 Winged Medium, 2 Winged Large and a pegasus rider that is clear a caster.
You don't know who your target is. You certainly will attack the clear caster riding a pegasus.
I get to say what I do, and on repeated scryings, the one on the pegasus doesn't issue commands to others, but I see them responding to commands, so they're not the leader. They're an underling.

Still, as I said before, it doesn't matter -- the Wizard has plenty of ability to destroy your minions one by one, and you cannot replace them fast enough to catch back up. Eventually, you're left either trying to Wish them back, in which case your Mind Blank isn't on and the Wizard can directly ID you, or you're just the last one left or are targeted randomly, triggering the followup attack.
Wrong too, that's not how Surprise works. To be surprised, you need to be successful on the stealth check. And you won't because MMD simulacrum will find you easily. It doesn't matter where you are.
The rule is actually that the DM determines who's surprised. Whatever, though, I'll pick a subclass now -- Diviner. We go when I have a 20 for initiative saved up.
Another problem, you cannot use invisibility and use scrying at the same time. Good luck.
Don't need to, and not sure why you think this is a lynchpin of the plan?
You will be hunted. Now, if you show up, the Galven Magen and Celestials will be ready action to kill you instantly (But, you wouldn't even have a second chance, would you?)?
Hunted -- by who? No one on your team can hunt faster than 1 kilometer a day, and that's with your interpretation that the DMM can retreiver every day. However, again, if we follow your claims, the DMM was destroyed in the first sortie -- dispelled.
The MMD Simulacrum's legendary action casts Hold Person. Good lucky.
Oh, sorry, you ordered this? I wasn't in your list. And, again, according to you, the DMM was targeted -- and dispelled -- first. No legendary actions, sorry.

Also, I thought this was about your Sorcerer? He doesn't seem to do anything, but says his minions do things. Not much of a Demigod, more of a hanger on to powerful allies.
Now Summon Retriver will find you.
Lol, hasn't this been absolutely proven to be a stupid plan by now?
The only thing you're doing is running away.
Nope, it'll take you months to get here, and, in the meantime, adventurers will deal with quite a lot of your little army.
And Demigod just wait you with Ready actions.
Always readying actions? Well, aside from the fact that you can't ready actions outside of combat, this seems like something I can do, as well -- ready actions for when we teleport to you. See the stupid, and why the rules don't allow this?
Good lucky.


"Your entire build relies on the minions, which are fragile and subject to destruction, and you cannot rebuild them fast enough (or at all, with regard to the Magen). And your sorcerer completely lacks the ability to actually counterattack the wizard in any way except hoping the wizard comes back to them. You're entirely on the defensive -- the Wizard has the initiative and can dictate the pace of the engagement, which, given you MUST win in one fell swoop because you cannot withstand a protracted attrition fight, means you will lose.""


All of its premises were wrong.
Yes, you keep saying this, but only offering things that have been addressed as to why you think this. I'm embarrassed for you with how badly you're twisting rules and ignoring inconvenient things when it suits you. You change your tactics and build on the fly and pretend that your change was always such, and so we missed it. In other words, you cheat, baldly, and claim shamelessly claim victory.
Well, with Disintegrate spell, you will die forever.
Good luck.
Um, no, Clone. You really need to pay better attention.
 

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