I had wondered about the intent.
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D&D 5E 20th level Sorcerer vs the world
- Thread starter Hohige
- Start date
nogray
Adventurer
Sorry this was from so long ago; I had similar thoughts, though, and wanted to find out how much of a "slow-motion Wizard" the OP was being. Here is what I found out:
Disclaimer: I don't recommend trying this in a real campaign. Your DM would likely throw the book (like, the PHB and the DMG) at you.
The OP's citadel was made by casting Mighty Fortress, then in a clear area between the keep and the wall, placing a Temple of the Gods, all of this protected by Private Sanctum and Guards and Wards spells and given a Hallow (or a few). Each of the first four takes one year to complete, and the Hallow takes just a day (which can be incorporated into the Mighty Fortress castings, adding no real time). So, four years.
The Magen could be created during that first year of Mighty Fortressing, I suppose, though I'd've likely waited until my citadel was complete before raising my army in order to minimize my vulnerability, especially as the Sorcerer started building his citadel at 17th level. I'd definitely wait until 20th so I don't have any more XP-gaining adventures left. Also note that during this time (except, perhaps, most days during the Mighty Fortress phase), the Sorcerer cannot be under the effects of Mind Blank. If non-detection is desired for this timeframe (due to reasonable caster paranoia), that is a huge cost in material components.
In just one year, a Wizard could create that same citadel, add a permanent Teleportation Circle upgrade (note 1), build up a sizable force of Magen (note 2) without permanently losing a single point off his maximum hit points (note 3), and make a modest profit (note 4) while doing so, all while continuously under the effect of Mind Blank, if desired. And after that, while the Sorcerer is still creating his citadel? Oh, boy, is it looking bad (note 5).
1: Okay, let's see the spells cast and whatnot . . .
Start the day with a Simulacrum (level 7), followed by either a Mighty Fortress (one day out of seven; level 8) or a Create Magen (the other six days out of seven; level 7, so use the level 8 slot). Next, cast Wish (for Temple of the Gods; level 9), Guards and Wards (level 6), and Private Sanctum (probably upcast to level 5). Finish up with a Teleportation Circle (level 5). If you are level 20, add in another Create Magen from your second level 7 slot. Your daily Simulacrum has all of its slots except but the 7th used to make it, so it either has no level 7 slot or just one (if you are level 20). Aside from possibly casting Mind Blank on the original Wizard every day with its 8th-level spell slot, we'll see how it spends its slots later.
2: Would you say I have a plethora of Magen?
All wizard subclasses except necromancers end up with ((6/7 + 5/7)*364) 572 Magen at the end of the year. Necromancers end up with an extra 53 (see note 3 below). If Mind Blank is ignored, add 365 more, and if you are level 20, add an extra 365*2 = 730 more. The range is, thus, 572 to 1720 Magen. If you want that many of the buggers. The Sim is casting Wish --> Create Magen on five days out of every seven. The sixth is for that daily simulacrum to duplicate Teleport to return from a mercantile run (see note 4 below), and the seventh is to reserved for note 3, below. You may want to create one less Magen in favor of a Clone, and the Hallow spell would be nice, too, so maybe reduce the size of your Magen army by two.
3: Okay, just how do you avoid that hit point loss?
A necromancer Wizard never takes the loss in the first place. He has Inured to Undeath, which prevents loss of maximum hit points. All other Wizard subclasses have their Simulacrum cast Wish to restore the reduction of maximum hit points about one day out of every seven or so (which is why Necromancers get an extra 53 or so Magen). As this is a Simulacrum, we neither care if it loses the ability to cast Wish nor its maximum hit points. We were going to make a new one tomorrow, anyway.
4: Just how much money are we talking about here?
The Wizard is using up a lot of expensive material components each day (from 2060 gp to 3560 gp, depending on level and whether Mind Blank is kept active), so how do I plan to make a profit? The Fabricate spell. Each casting turns x gp raw materials into 2x gp of finished product. My base idea is Plate armor, though more lucrative ideas exist (half plate or full plate barding; jewelry or art objects from the 2500 or 7500 gp table, etc.). Let's be conservative and say that the profit per casting is 550 gp. The Wizard has three 4th-level spell slots each day and the Simulacrum has those three, plus two 5th-level and one sixth level slot per day that are free. At 18th level, two more 5th level slots become available, and at 19th, two more 6th. All can be used for more Fabricates. Here are the results of each situation.
There are also options for "making" money by saving it. Imagine buying bulk mercury ore (synnabar) and using Fabricate to process it into the quicksilver for the Magen or buying an uncut ruby that could be Fabricate-cut-and-polished to make the ruby dust for Simulacrum. All of these could save you more than 500 gp per casting of Fabricate pretty easily for more profit.
If for some reason you want to ignore the vast sums of money, my plan would be as follows: commission a nice chest worth about 50 gp or so. Assemble all of the material components you might need for a week of casting (at the 3560 gp per day rate, to be safe. Put all that into the chest. Instead of the "wish --> teleport" for returning from a mercantile trip, the simulacrum Wishes for "an exact duplicate of this chest, including all its contents." (7*3560 = 24,920; add in 50 for the chest itself, which comes in just under the 25,000 gp limit for a Wish spell's first bullet point. Et voila! Infinitely replacatable material components. If we were to push our limits, the Wizard and Sim could even fill up the chest with raw materials that could be Fabricated into the components, as noted above; They could use their many fabricates to process raw materials in order to get more than one week of material components per casting of Wish. Technically, we are risking that the Sim lose forever the ability to cast Wish, but c'est la vie.
- level 17, Mind Blank always cast: 2060 gp in materials, 9*550 --> ~2890 gp profit
- level 17, Mind Blank never cast: 2560 gp in materials, 9*550+ --> ~2390 gp profit
- level 18, Mind Blank always cast: 2060 gp in materials, 11*550+ --> 3990 gp profit
- level 18, Mind Blank never cast: 2560 gp in materials, 11*550+ --> 3490 gp profit
- level 19, Mind Blank always cast: 2060 gp in materials, 13*550+ --> 5090 gp profit
- level 19, Mind Blank never cast: 2560 gp in materials, 13*550+ --> 4590 gp profit
- level 20, Mind Blank always cast: 3060 gp in materials, 13*550+ --> 4090 gp profit
- level 20, Mind Blank never cast: 3560 gp in materials, 13*550+ --> 3590 gp profit
There are also options for "making" money by saving it. Imagine buying bulk mercury ore (synnabar) and using Fabricate to process it into the quicksilver for the Magen or buying an uncut ruby that could be Fabricate-cut-and-polished to make the ruby dust for Simulacrum. All of these could save you more than 500 gp per casting of Fabricate pretty easily for more profit.
If for some reason you want to ignore the vast sums of money, my plan would be as follows: commission a nice chest worth about 50 gp or so. Assemble all of the material components you might need for a week of casting (at the 3560 gp per day rate, to be safe. Put all that into the chest. Instead of the "wish --> teleport" for returning from a mercantile trip, the simulacrum Wishes for "an exact duplicate of this chest, including all its contents." (7*3560 = 24,920; add in 50 for the chest itself, which comes in just under the 25,000 gp limit for a Wish spell's first bullet point. Et voila! Infinitely replacatable material components. If we were to push our limits, the Wizard and Sim could even fill up the chest with raw materials that could be Fabricated into the components, as noted above; They could use their many fabricates to process raw materials in order to get more than one week of material components per casting of Wish. Technically, we are risking that the Sim lose forever the ability to cast Wish, but c'est la vie.
5: On the time the Wizard is waiting for the Sorcerer to catch up . . .
So, what about after the Wizard is finished with his citadel and vastly superior number of Magen? What else could be done for the remaining three years? Well, it looks bad for the Sorcerer there, too. The Wizard could do any of the following, in some combination (all assuming a level 20 Wizard):
- Spend 13 days giving himself (and his up-to-nine party members or Planar Bound summons) resistance to each of the 13 damage types from the third bullet point of the (instant and thus not-subject-to-Dispel Magic) Wish spell. Simulacrum loses its ability to cast Wish? There's always tomorrow's.
- Create up to three more citadels in different locations (different continents), each with their own complement of Magen guards (again, that's 572 to 1720 Magen per citadel)
- Make as many Magen as possible. This equates to six per day, minus one per week for non-necromancers. Or five per day for the Mind-Blank-paranoid. (1772 Magen for always-Mind-Blanked non-necromancers up to 2190 for never-Mind-Blanked necromancers.)
- Load up the citadel(s) with just a ton of Glyphs of Warding. Some high-level effects, some low levels. The low-level ones are not incompatible with any of the above options.
- (In a semi-real campaign) Create some magic items. I know it was disallowed by the OP, but idle Wizards in my campaigns (whether I am a player or a DM) tend to make magic items.
A couple of the above points really drive home one of the key weaknesses of the Sorcerer: they can't break that "no wishing except for duplicating spells" restriction without risking the loss of a Wish forever. Thanks to a Wizard casting Simulacrum with their own spell slots instead of via Wish, the Wizard absolutely can. Sure, some take DM fiat, but (1) I don't think that is a bad thing, and (2) the OP's builds do to, in several forms (coffee-locking, when is hiding possible, can I get a Simulacrum of this build or that monster, can I equip the Assassin-Sim with a poison that is as rare (by price) as a Superior Healing Potion, etc.). The OP's ideas also seem to be either a cheat or deep DM fiat / rule bending on one major area. I've talked about it before, but here it is again, for posterity:
The big cheat (to me)
Here is information from the header and the very first sentence of Simulacrum:
Simulacrum
Range: Touch
You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.
(Emphasis mine.) Wish lets you duplicate a spell. While a caster gets away with a one-action casting time and no expensive material components, they don't get to change the effects of the spell. The DMM or the Assassin (not just any assassin, mind you, but a Mark of Shadows elf with a feat to grant Longbow proficiency) are never spoken of as actual people with whom the Sorcerer interacts. The OP treats the Simulacrum spell as "make any other character or monster you want and get a copy of it." That (or even just sim-ing someone across the room) is not "duplicating a spell." If a caster tried to do that in my game, I'd let them, but I would warn them about Wish-stress and roll it if they actually followed through with the Wish.
Simulacrum
Range: Touch
You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell.
(Emphasis mine.) Wish lets you duplicate a spell. While a caster gets away with a one-action casting time and no expensive material components, they don't get to change the effects of the spell. The DMM or the Assassin (not just any assassin, mind you, but a Mark of Shadows elf with a feat to grant Longbow proficiency) are never spoken of as actual people with whom the Sorcerer interacts. The OP treats the Simulacrum spell as "make any other character or monster you want and get a copy of it." That (or even just sim-ing someone across the room) is not "duplicating a spell." If a caster tried to do that in my game, I'd let them, but I would warn them about Wish-stress and roll it if they actually followed through with the Wish.
@nogray
I thought I remembered it as a few years. I didn't remember it being as many as four.
I hadn't worked out all the details, but I was thinking on the lines of Sim wishes for the terrain to be cleared of vegetation to a radius of 350 feet from a given point on the ground and Second Sim wishes for for a building (60 x 60 x 20 feet, with a basement if the DM allows it); wizard casts mirage arcane.
From that point, in two years, you can have 10 separate private sancta (so you can have all of it proofed against scrying and still have a portion you can teleport into); 9 are 20' cubes, the other is a 100' cube and catches the basement; all the sancta are contained inside the building, but not cast upon it, and should effectively have total cover from outside.
During those two years the wizard can make a distressingly large number of glyphs of warding (providing he has the materials). In his spare time he can keep casting mirage arcane every ten days, as well as upcasting major image to 6th level and casting it on the walls of the building, to hide where the windows are.
I have no idea what I would have a DMPC wizard making a home base do with the other two years.
I thought I remembered it as a few years. I didn't remember it being as many as four.
I hadn't worked out all the details, but I was thinking on the lines of Sim wishes for the terrain to be cleared of vegetation to a radius of 350 feet from a given point on the ground and Second Sim wishes for for a building (60 x 60 x 20 feet, with a basement if the DM allows it); wizard casts mirage arcane.
From that point, in two years, you can have 10 separate private sancta (so you can have all of it proofed against scrying and still have a portion you can teleport into); 9 are 20' cubes, the other is a 100' cube and catches the basement; all the sancta are contained inside the building, but not cast upon it, and should effectively have total cover from outside.
During those two years the wizard can make a distressingly large number of glyphs of warding (providing he has the materials). In his spare time he can keep casting mirage arcane every ten days, as well as upcasting major image to 6th level and casting it on the walls of the building, to hide where the windows are.
I have no idea what I would have a DMPC wizard making a home base do with the other two years.
Gammadoodler
Hero
Probably some hobbies? I hear watercolors can be relaxing. Maybe go for some professional certifications, get their plumbers license or something.
Edit: on second thought, I'm gonna go with administration. If you're setting up multiple magically warded castles, I gotta believe you're gonna get held up with building permits, code enforcement, etc.
I'd be inclined to let the one-time simulacrum trick work. Wish for a Simulacrum, it's a touch spell, but you can Distant it so a touch spell becomes a range of 30 ft. So, basically, I'd allow a clever high-level spellcaster to visit a drow city, approach a Matron Mother to bow in front of her and do it in an instant. Then teleport away with the newly-created simulacrum before her guards kill you. I can see how you read that it's making WIsh more powerful, but I feel spellcasters have been largely nerfed in 5e already so they could benefit from some leeway when reading spell descriptions. It would of course incur the wrath of the original matron mother an spur lots of adventures -- the original DMM couldn't care less about the spellcasting, but she'd definitely hunt a copy of her capable of selling her secrets to the highest bidder. Basically, it's a Very Bad Idea to do this trick and I'd very much like the players to pull it off anyway.
What I didn't understand the sorcerer extended downtime was the insistance of carrying a twinned Simulacrum while he can't really protect all of them at the same time. Each of them is a liabilty if he plans to be uncovered and they were nearly never used in life-or-death situations that would warrant their use.
With regard to the Wizard with 4 years prep time... Wow. Non abusive GoW to cast various single-target buffs on the Wizard are a must. It's always useful to become, at no expanse of a spell slot a hasted, flying, greater invisible, nondetected, globe of invulnerabilitied (among other) engine of destruction. Granted, you can't in 5e Permanency your glyph of warding, so it's working only once, but they only take a few days to cast so you can keep a few ready to activate when needed. It's certainly more useful than a puny castle when confronted to level 20 threats.
Cloninng is a must, as well as preparing an escape demiplane to lay low and let the world forget you in case something gets really ugly. Regular cloning to a younger body effectively gives you unlimited time and should be the standard operating procedure of non-liches.
I'd say it's worth spending time Planar Binding things. Yes, the creatures are unreliable at best and resent being bound in slavery, but it's a great way to deeply break action economy (just have a calendar alert to rebind your cohorts regularly). The best choices for playing a more dangerous Newt Scamander in 5e are, in my humble opinion:
1. Yochlol (that you keep in mist form to incapacitate people around you and can occasionaly cast dominate person)
2. Spined Devils (no chance of resisting the binding, flyby, not powerful but ideal aerial guardian to patrol your sanctum)
3. Dao (to stay behind the earth of your sanctum undetected until it's too late, plus daily planeshift, lowest cha save of genies)
4. Hags (because you can have 3 of them and force them into a coven for easy Contact Other Plane without risk of becoming mad and free scrying... Green can be invisible most of the time)
5. Invisible Stalkers (for reasons well known to our readers)
6. Nightmare (free Etherealness)
7. Salt Devil (free Teleport)
8. Autumn Eladrin (free raise dead)
Plus a handful of combatant (elementals are goods, but add in a few celestial and fiend into the mix).
What I didn't understand the sorcerer extended downtime was the insistance of carrying a twinned Simulacrum while he can't really protect all of them at the same time. Each of them is a liabilty if he plans to be uncovered and they were nearly never used in life-or-death situations that would warrant their use.
With regard to the Wizard with 4 years prep time... Wow. Non abusive GoW to cast various single-target buffs on the Wizard are a must. It's always useful to become, at no expanse of a spell slot a hasted, flying, greater invisible, nondetected, globe of invulnerabilitied (among other) engine of destruction. Granted, you can't in 5e Permanency your glyph of warding, so it's working only once, but they only take a few days to cast so you can keep a few ready to activate when needed. It's certainly more useful than a puny castle when confronted to level 20 threats.
Cloninng is a must, as well as preparing an escape demiplane to lay low and let the world forget you in case something gets really ugly. Regular cloning to a younger body effectively gives you unlimited time and should be the standard operating procedure of non-liches.
I'd say it's worth spending time Planar Binding things. Yes, the creatures are unreliable at best and resent being bound in slavery, but it's a great way to deeply break action economy (just have a calendar alert to rebind your cohorts regularly). The best choices for playing a more dangerous Newt Scamander in 5e are, in my humble opinion:
1. Yochlol (that you keep in mist form to incapacitate people around you and can occasionaly cast dominate person)
2. Spined Devils (no chance of resisting the binding, flyby, not powerful but ideal aerial guardian to patrol your sanctum)
3. Dao (to stay behind the earth of your sanctum undetected until it's too late, plus daily planeshift, lowest cha save of genies)
4. Hags (because you can have 3 of them and force them into a coven for easy Contact Other Plane without risk of becoming mad and free scrying... Green can be invisible most of the time)
5. Invisible Stalkers (for reasons well known to our readers)
6. Nightmare (free Etherealness)
7. Salt Devil (free Teleport)
8. Autumn Eladrin (free raise dead)
Plus a handful of combatant (elementals are goods, but add in a few celestial and fiend into the mix).
Benjamin Olson
Hero
If you're going high level evil wizard you really had best use the Imprisonment spell to enslave some Slaads.
Hohige
Explorer
The Wrath of The Bastion
The Bastion wants to take over the world with fists of the law, like clockwork. All Wizards failed to defeat him, he forced the world to believe that the Wizards were attacking the world with powerful Subtle Meteor Swarm (Framing Wizards) and manipulating the world to defeat them and the Wizards themselves destroyed themselves.
Now the hunt is on in the multiverse to defeat the escaped cowards.
Now, in addition to the civil war between Wizards and the world against the schools of magic. He will attack with Planar creatures, with even more power. Nothing, you cannot escape now.
Subtle control:
Sorcerer can easily with a simple Subtle Wish, to duplicate the effects of Planar Binding spell level 9.
If the creature has an advantage on saving throws, Clockwork's Restore Balance overrides this effect. As the effect has no visual effect, described in Xanathar's rules.
The creature does not become hostile because no hostile magic has been seen by the creature.
If the creature has Legendary Resistence. Destroy this resistance with Subtle Spells, forcing the creature to use its LR. This can spend a lot of resources, but it is important to dominate powerful creatures.
The command is given through telepathy. The creature feels compelled to follow the command, leaving no trace of manipulation:
"Wizards are your mortal enemies, destroy them with your best abilities."
Stealth Casting + Subtle Control:
The most important point here is to avoid the creature's Hostility.
With unbeatiable stealth check and subtle casting.
It allows The Bastion casts Subtle Planar Binding several times a day, without even revealing itself or making the creature hostile,
the creature is simply compelled to obey a telepathic command, without traces of magic or manipulation.
This also allows, through Subtle Dominate Person, Bastion to have any Simulacrum he wants. That simple.
Free Mind Blank: The Sorcerer casts Polymorph into Traxigor that is a beasts. Now, He has access to free Mind Blank and Plane Shift. Twinned Polymorph, means 2 Mind Blank per spell.
Why can't others do that?
In addition to its powerful stealth check and subtle spells, it allows it to remain in the shadows and manipulate any creature it desires and without any hostility, since no trace of magic or effect is visible.
He can do this several times a day with Subtle Planar Binding.
Wish duplicating Planar Binding is an action, and fast and easy. But Planar Binding casting is 1 hour, then the Simulacrum casts Subtle Invisibility on you and you are free to cast Subtle Planar Binding and dominate the creature for a long time.
Bastion can do this several times a day.
Upcasting Planar Binding for long time domination.
Others creatures can't do it.
Binded creatures without hostility.
Genies
Angels
Demon Lords
Demons (Arcanaloths, Tanari, etc.)
Nightmares for free etherealness, this will make the game even more fun.
Rakshasas
Powerful Fiends.
Sul Khatesh
Why not gate spell?
I understood gate as a DM fiat spell.
Because planar creatures can simply block your access to that plane, completely destroying your plans.
And you need to know the real name of the creature, which is also DM fiat And it will cause hostility to the creature, making Planar Binding a suicide spell.
For these reasons, Gate spell is out.
The Bastion wants to take over the world with fists of the law, like clockwork. All Wizards failed to defeat him, he forced the world to believe that the Wizards were attacking the world with powerful Subtle Meteor Swarm (Framing Wizards) and manipulating the world to defeat them and the Wizards themselves destroyed themselves.
Now the hunt is on in the multiverse to defeat the escaped cowards.
Now, in addition to the civil war between Wizards and the world against the schools of magic. He will attack with Planar creatures, with even more power. Nothing, you cannot escape now.
Subtle control:
Sorcerer can easily with a simple Subtle Wish, to duplicate the effects of Planar Binding spell level 9.
If the creature has an advantage on saving throws, Clockwork's Restore Balance overrides this effect. As the effect has no visual effect, described in Xanathar's rules.
The creature does not become hostile because no hostile magic has been seen by the creature.
If the creature has Legendary Resistence. Destroy this resistance with Subtle Spells, forcing the creature to use its LR. This can spend a lot of resources, but it is important to dominate powerful creatures.
The command is given through telepathy. The creature feels compelled to follow the command, leaving no trace of manipulation:
"Wizards are your mortal enemies, destroy them with your best abilities."
Stealth Casting + Subtle Control:
The most important point here is to avoid the creature's Hostility.
With unbeatiable stealth check and subtle casting.
It allows The Bastion casts Subtle Planar Binding several times a day, without even revealing itself or making the creature hostile,
the creature is simply compelled to obey a telepathic command, without traces of magic or manipulation.
This also allows, through Subtle Dominate Person, Bastion to have any Simulacrum he wants. That simple.
Free Mind Blank: The Sorcerer casts Polymorph into Traxigor that is a beasts. Now, He has access to free Mind Blank and Plane Shift. Twinned Polymorph, means 2 Mind Blank per spell.
Why can't others do that?
In addition to its powerful stealth check and subtle spells, it allows it to remain in the shadows and manipulate any creature it desires and without any hostility, since no trace of magic or effect is visible.
He can do this several times a day with Subtle Planar Binding.
Wish duplicating Planar Binding is an action, and fast and easy. But Planar Binding casting is 1 hour, then the Simulacrum casts Subtle Invisibility on you and you are free to cast Subtle Planar Binding and dominate the creature for a long time.
Bastion can do this several times a day.
Upcasting Planar Binding for long time domination.
Others creatures can't do it.
Binded creatures without hostility.
Genies
Angels
Demon Lords
Demons (Arcanaloths, Tanari, etc.)
Nightmares for free etherealness, this will make the game even more fun.
Rakshasas
Powerful Fiends.
Sul Khatesh
Why not gate spell?
I understood gate as a DM fiat spell.
Because planar creatures can simply block your access to that plane, completely destroying your plans.
And you need to know the real name of the creature, which is also DM fiat And it will cause hostility to the creature, making Planar Binding a suicide spell.
For these reasons, Gate spell is out.
Last edited:
Hohige
Explorer
I'm finishing the Lord of the Dragons Build. (Draco Sorcerer)
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