250 daggers with a Telekinesis spell?

[Hypersmurf]

Re: And around and around and around we go...

Our Psion wanted to just drop about 200 arrows and just hurl them... I had to stop somewhere...

Arrows are no problem

Weapons deal normal damage. Arrows aren't weapons, they're ammunition. They deal damage as objects, not weapons

Daggers and shuriken do cause problems by the wording of the spell

-Hyp.

 

[Zerovoid]

I would house rule this so that the wizard can only throw one object per caster level. This puts the weapon throwing ability about in line with the violent thrust.

 

[Darkness]

Of course, DR 1/silver is enough to shrug off every point of that damage

-Hyp.

Also, protection from arrows (or whatever it's called) is only a 2nd-level spell nowadays, allowing for protection against even the daggers...

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, protection from arrows (or whatever it's called) is only a 2nd-level spell nowadays, allowing for protection against even the daggers...

Except that it only stops the first 10 points per level. That's a lot, but the Telekinesis spell might still do a boatload.

Plus, a lot of the daggers might miss and still be in range for a second TK spell.


Personally, this is a lot of damage and obviously the designers were not thinking about daggers or shurikens when they wrote it.

I think the maximum of one object per caster level is the best fix I've read so far. I think the 1D6 per 25 pound rule in the spell description itself indicates that the designers wanted to put a limit like this on this. Course, having 9 D12 GreatAxes (or possibly some big giant sized weapons) hurling at 9th level is still fairly potent as long as the target's AC is not too high.

 

[Someguy]

Protection from arrows does not help when you there is no mage...and arrows can be used as melee weapons...but crappy ones...

And the greataxes...

I think we found a use for mithral weapons!!!...they are lighter, and you can hurl a few more! (albeit expensive)

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Except that it only stops the first 10 points per level. That's a lot, but the Telekinesis spell might still do a boatload.

Plus, a lot of the daggers might miss and still be in range for a second TK spell.


Personally, this is a lot of damage and obviously the designers were not thinking about daggers or shurikens when they wrote it.

I think the maximum of one object per caster level is the best fix I've read so far. I think the 1D6 per 25 pound rule in the spell description itself indicates that the designers wanted to put a limit like this on this. Course, having 9 D12 GreatAxes (or possibly some big giant sized weapons) hurling at 9th level is still fairly potent as long as the target's AC is not too high.

If a mage (wiz or sorc) in your campaign wanted to make a trap like this, would you use this house rule?

--Curious Spikey

 

[KarinsDad]

If a mage (wiz or sorc) in your campaign wanted to make a trap like this, would you use this house rule?

--Curious Spikey

Definitely, unless someone came up with a house rule that I like more.

It's obvious from reading the spell that a limit was placed on it. The problem is that the designers did not see the loophole.

There is no way I would allow a 5th level spell do 30 times as much average damage as a 9th level spell though (2250+ points with TK Shurikens vs. 84 for Meteor Swarm). Even if you needed a natural 20 to hit, it would still be 112 average points of damage (625+ points with daggers, 31 points if you need a natural 20). That's instant death against any same level opponent, regardless of their AC (without some form of protective magic like Protection From Arrows).

That's beyond ridiculous and screams for an errata.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It is not instant death.
To use the instant death rule, you must inflict at least 50 points of damage with a single attack, and you would have to attack with each dagger. 1d4 points of damage are far away from 50 points.

Hmm, 2500 shuriken would cost what? 2500 gp? Okay, you might be able to use them again ...

Most opponents players face do have some kind of damage reduction, Regeneration or something like that, so they are not really threatened by this method.

It becomes more dangerous for players.

The interesting question: How many daggers / Shuriken can hit the target at once? Remember that, at they get nearer to the target, they come into each other ways and some might lose the direction... So, no more than 100 to 200 daggers at one target, and only half of them might actually hit, so assume 50d4 to 100d4 points of damage, an average value of 125 to 250 points of damage... I admit, still powerful...

But it will only work in a very good situation, in which the caster is well prepared. But well prepared casters, aren`t they always very dangerous?
So, I think it is okay...

 

[KarinsDad]

It is not instant death.

How is 112 average points of damage not instant death to an average 9th level character? Yes, a Barbarian with a 20 Constitution would have an average of 109 hit points and would be at -3 (without Rage or some form of magical protection) if he was not injured in any way walking into it. But, a 9th level Fighter with that same 20 Constitution would be at –13 hits. A 9th level Wizard with that 20 Con would be at –43 hits.

This assumes of course, that the 9th level character has an AC of 28 or higher as well. If he has an AC of 27 or the Wizard has an Int of 20 (vs. AC 28), it's suddenly 224 average points of damage. It gets much worse as the AC drops.

But for 99% of characters, unless they are somehow magically prepared for the attack, it is instant death. No other 5th level spell (with the exception of Harm which is not a ranged attack) even comes close.

The interesting question: How many daggers / Shuriken can hit the target at once? Remember that, at they get nearer to the target, they come into each other ways and some might lose the direction... So, no more than 100 to 200 daggers at one target, and only half of them might actually hit, so assume 50d4 to 100d4 points of damage, an average value of 125 to 250 points of damage... I admit, still powerful...

Let’s see. 6 foot tall opponent. 1 foot wide (he is facing sideways and trying to avoid as many as possible). 6 square feet. It’s magic, so we can assume that the spell itself does not purposely TK each object into each other. Each shuriken is 4 inches by 1/2 inch (for the round ones, you could probably get 3 or 4 times as many of the dart-like ones). 2 square inches. There are 144 square inches in a square foot, so 432 shurikens in 6 square feet. That’s still 432 points of damage since you can assume that the ones that hit are the ones that get there first. Since it is magic, any interference must by default be done by those that “missed”.

But it will only work in a very good situation, in which the caster is well prepared. But well prepared casters, aren`t they always very dangerous?
So, I think it is okay...

You have a strange idea of what is ok in the game. To each their own.

 

[jasper]

Loopholes are nice. Stick the monsters neck into them and pull them shut. Dead monsters.
Just remember what is good enough for the monster is good enough to use against those evil icky nasty adventurers.

12th level mage. I lift the 2000 daggers and kill the dragon.

Next week .
The 2 6th level mage lift thier 1000 dagges and kill you.

Player "thats not fair!"

Or in KODT, the lets go overbear a dragon rule