[3.5] Enormous number of changes - some make me wonder why...

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Hrm, I heard Temporal Stasis got bumped down to 8th level but has a fort save to negate now to make up for it...

 

[Celtavian]

Well, I'm skimming through the PHB and I have to admit that I'm amazed at the vast number of changes they've made to spells

It wasn't just the obvious problem ones that they've fixed, there is a whole range which are different now.

You're beginning to worry me.

Burning hands is a 15ft cone instead of a 10ft semicircle.

Fits for the spell, either way does. Not a big deal.

Shocking Grasp does 1d6 per caster level (max 5d6) electric damage (touch attack)

Not a big deal.

Lightning bolt is now a line attack with a fixed range of 120ft rather than the option of Medium range and 5ft wide or half that range and 10ft wide. It is no longer as good at clearing our wide corridors, and this change seems to have been to fit in with the battlegrid description of spell effects.

Not even going to make it into my game. This type of change really annoys me and makes me wonder why Andy Collins thought this was necessary.

Shillelagh - happily specifies that it affects both ends of the quarterstaff at once (yes!) but it ups the damage by two size categories (thus a medium qstaff does 2d6(!)). Presumably a change to give different benefits to Small and Medium druids?

Never used this spell anyhow, nor did anyone I know on a common basis.

Globe of Invulnerability *doesn't* negate previously cast spells, so the wizard could buff himself up with his 1st-3rd level buffs and *then* sit inside a globe (although it does eliminate it's usefulness as a counter to being silenced

I like this change. Someone might actually use the spell now.

Endure Elements only protects from adverse cold and hot weather, not against damaging energy at all.

It's a first level spell. It fits for a first level effect.

Sleep is a full round casting time and a max of 4HD who all get a saving throw - that used to be a real killer spell and now its almost completely useless!

It will still be a good spell for those first level Enchanter specialists. Personally, I never used this spell since the change. More often than not over half the monsters I cast it on made their saving throws.

Cone spells (like Cone of Cold) all seem to have a fixed range

Not going to be using any fixed range changes. I don't like fixed ranges. Range should be determined by caster power.

The Enlarge spell metamagic has been redefined to only increase the range of spells without a fixed range (i.e. if they are close, medium or long it works, if it is a cone or line it doesn't work). Wonder why they wanted to stop people getting longer lightning bolts and cone effects? I think that is a change I'll be ignoring (I wonder how long my list of ignored changes will be?). Oh, I know, it is so we might take the *Widen* feat instead to increase the area of Cones. At +3 caster levels

Two feats that few people used in the first place other than for Prereq's. Couldn't they have just combined them.

There are many more I could mention - some of which were necessary IMO (blade barrier becomes a barrier rather than a brilliant area attack spell, harm and heal and haste become more manageable as we know and were expecting)

On the other hand we know about spells being broken up (emotion, symbol) or changing level (shades, Greater Shadow Conjuration etc) which particularly hurts sorcerers (and I guess bards), and the changing of spell levels in most cases seems really pointless. If they wanted some more high level illusions, create new stuff! Don't cause problems for existing PCs!


I almost get the feeling that the designers got a bit carried away here amongst the spells. Some changes were good and necessary, sure, but there is a whole range of other spells which have been changed when there doesn't seem to have been a pressing need to do so. I've not decided yet whether I think this is a good thing or a bad thing.

I'm surprised that their approach hasn't been to extend and add new stuff in preference to changing old stuff except in the bare minimum of cases.

I think the designers went too far as well, especially Andy with the PHB. I don't quite understand why Andy thought the PHB needed so much work.

I can only hope it was because they forced him to make the changes so widespread. The PHB sounds like the most different book of the bunch. Considering it is the most important and well-used of the three books, I was hoping it would have less changes than I am seeing.

 

[aurellius]

Thanks PlaneSailing...

This is probably my biggest beef......

By changing things to fixed values they mostly destroyed the flexibility of the meta magic system...IMO

For Example an old lighting bolt is now a 6th level spell with 3rd level dc and damage caps..... ie new spell with widen [+3 lvls]


And Before all the naysayers jump on me...there are many many things I like about the new magic system

Mass cure spells are a great idea for instance

Getting away from save or die is too but they may have made it worse by putting in high damage spells with no save [polar ray]


Marcus

 

[green slime]

I hate to say it, but...

Blaahrg

This is going to go a long to splitting the fan base. There are no going to be so much house rules it is going to be impossible to slide from one game to the next seemlessly.

 

[drnuncheon]

"100gp/hd for 1 min/level nonhazordous tasks and 100xp cost. Just remove the spell instead of making it this lame."

"I would probably houserule the costs down by a tenth, or allow a Diplomacy check to lower or waive the costs."

Because, you know, a called creature who has been pulled from his home plane to come serve your whims should be more than happy to just rush off into suicidal danger and give his life for you, right? Especially if you offer it the princely sum of 60 gp! Or talk nicely to it.

C'mon. It's planar ally, not summon more powerful monster. This spell kicks butt. It's an incredible force multiplier. Just look at some of the things that your typical celestial, demon or devil can do at will, and then realize that you can summon them several levels earlier than you could with summon monster (if you could at all) and for a longer time. There needs to be some kind of balance there.

"Not going to be using any fixed range changes. I don't like fixed ranges. Range should be determined by caster power."

Well...that's the problem, isn't it? Because cone and line, the way they were in 3.0, were the only spells whose area changed based on the character's caster power. A more powerful wizard doesn't get a larger fireball, why should he get a larger cone of cold? Why should a feat that makes you able to charm someone from farther away suddenly increase the area of your lightning bolt - especially when there's another feat that's supposed to do that?

It may not be a popular change, but I think it makes a lot more sense than the old way.

 

[Plane Sailing]

All in all, the changes so far look good...
Give me a rundown on what PrC's were thrown at the DMG, and any info regarding the PrC suggestions, ruling, etc.

And how about some data regarding monster changes, and the changes to facing.
REAL data, not crap from other websites.

Hi Warlord,

I'd suggest looking at Olgars compilation thread for lots of great information - I'll not be saying anything that 's already covered there, and there is a lot of it!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plane Sailing, are there enough changes to spells and spell lists to say that the necromancer, illusionist and enchanter are equal to the evoker, transmuter, and conjurer?

I'd be tempted to say yes.

The changes to the spell schools mean that all of these have a good range of spells to choose from at each level. High level enchanters really benefit from the symbols which are now theirs, and power words etc. The illusionist has had some of his "shadow" spells moved to higher level, but with concomitant raised effects (9th level "shades" duplicate spells up to 8th level with 80% effeciency).

Enchanters are probably the worst off because there are better defences against his spells (prot/evil at low level, and Mind Blank really shuts him out later).

Certainly I'd consider playing any of those now - e.g. a Necromancer who eschewed illusion and enchantment still gets all the juicy evocation, transmutation and conjuration spells as well as his necromantic specialty.

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

I may be wrong, but wasn't this already the case in 3.0e?

Gosh, you're right! Fancy that!

Just so this doesn't end up a "doh" post, I'll include something else that I really like - Horizon Walker.

Good BAB, Good Fort ST, Poor Will and Ref ST.

Each of the first 5 levels he gets a "terrain mastery", for each of the next 5 levels he can get either a terrain or a "planar mastery"

Mastery gives +1 hit and damage against anything with that terrain in its MM description, plus an additional ability.

e.g. Desert Terrain - you are so used to hardships of the desert that you never get fatigued, and ignore anything that would make you fatigued. Anything that would make you exhausted fatigues you instead (loose paraphrase)

e.g. fiery (planar) gives +1 hit and damage against outsiders with the fire subtype and fire resistance 20.

Plenty of other interesting choices amongst them too.

Cheers

 

[FireLance]

"100gp/hd for 1 min/level nonhazordous tasks and 100xp cost. Just remove the spell instead of making it this lame."

"I would probably houserule the costs down by a tenth, or allow a Diplomacy check to lower or waive the costs."

Because, you know, a called creature who has been pulled from his home plane to come serve your whims should be more than happy to just rush off into suicidal danger and give his life for you, right? Especially if you offer it the princely sum of 60 gp! Or talk nicely to it.

C'mon. It's planar ally, not summon more powerful monster. This spell kicks butt. It's an incredible force multiplier. Just look at some of the things that your typical celestial, demon or devil can do at will, and then realize that you can summon them several levels earlier than you could with summon monster (if you could at all) and for a longer time. There needs to be some kind of balance there.

100gp/HD for 1 minute of nonhazardous tasks doesn't sound like rushing off into suicidal danger to me. Hands up everyone who would like to be paid $100 per minute plus travel expenses.

But fair point on the need for balance. I'll review the costs when I get my hands on the 3.5e books. It just seems odd to me as a DM to place a dretch guard in the hideout of an evil cleric if it needs to be paid 2000gp per day. It kind of lowers the scope for using low-level demons and devils against an inexperienced party.

 

[Olive]

Hmmm...

I thinkt he new guidelines for Planar Ally sound really good. And the XP cost is welcome.

Anyway, in general, I like the basic rules changes, but I'm deeply unsure about some of the spell changes. Some I like/love (harm, haste, new poly spells etc.), some I think make sense (1 min buffs) and some I'm probably gonna house rule, if just for the sake of not annoying my plaers to much (lightnig bolt and possibly fly).

This is turning into far more hassle than I expected it to be. DAMN YOU ANDY COLLINS!!!