D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Hold Person Super-Nerf

[Aaron2]

Maybe all spells that take out people for a variable amount of time (Hold Person, Sleep, Cause Fear) should be changed to a save per round. That will at least give the player something to do while his character is hosed.


Aaron

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The new Hold Person is probably more dangerous than the old Hold Person even if it is weaker, but the one that slipped through the net is Color Spray.

Hold Person was nerfed, Sleep was nerfed (reduced HD affected, increased casting time), but Color Spray was left as is...

...when in fact it is patently more powerful. At low-levels, it is more powerful than Sleep...affecting an average of 3.5 creatures of 2HD, it affects 7HD- significanty more than Sleep. It lasts longer (2d4 rounds) for the unconsciousness, which is better than Sleep. It cannot be broken, unlike Sleep. It is significantly better at high levels compared to Sleep (i.e. it has still *some* use).

pretty much agree with everything you said but color spray received a minor nerf along with all other cone spells. It no longer is a short range spell which can be increased in range and area of effect by the increase range(name?) metamaic feat. Now it can only be increased by the you'd have to be brain dead to take it widen spell feat. Also in the case of color spray its area of effect was signifigantly shortned by switching away form close range 25+5 every 2 levels to its now 15' range.

 

[Nail]

.....the change to Hold Person was a bad one. You now have to CDG an enemy as quickly as possible because even someone with a bad Will save probably won't stay held....

I think what you mean is: My NPC tactics will have to change with 3.5e's Hold Person. And I can't argue with that. That's a DM decision, and is entirely within DM choice. YMMV.

But as for the spell itself: no, it is not more lethal now than it was. In fact, in many cases it's much less dangerous.

For example, if the held enemy is not right next to you, you can't GdG it that round. You have to wait until next round, before which the enemy gets another chance to save. Moreover, the enemy's friends may be able to move to help it and prevent CdGs.

You do allow the bad guys to help each other, don't you?

 

[green slime]

I really don't see what the problem was with the 3.0 Hold Person. The only reason for the change was because Andy Collins felt that the game was no fun for players whose character was held for the entire combat. Given that most combats in many people's game last fewer than 7 rounds, I really don't see the problem.

It is also why you have Remove Paralysis and Dispel Magic. The 3.0 version promotes more inspiring heroics amongst the players as they get desperate to try and save the unfortunate character, even when no enemies are nearby. Whereas now it is just hohum, roll better next time, dude.

Another valid point is that NPCs tended to ignore those held, hoping to take care of them at a later point in time, and chosing to deal with those threats which are still active, and may try to rescue the held victim(readying a counterspell Dispel Magic is particularly devious). Given the short expected duration, it becomes imperative to CDG immediately. So now instead of casting on his action, the Caster delays until just before the evil fighter's turn, hold person, then CDG follows immediately. You do allow the bad guys to co-ordinate actions?

The point being, it wasn't previously necessary to coordinate to such a degree to get good use out of the spell. This changes forces the issue. So it appears less dangerous to players, but in fact is more so.