D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Reduce Person--what's the point?

[Elder-Basilisk]

So, looking through the 3.5 SRD today, I noticed that Reduce was made into reduce person (and give a fort save instead of a will save). This seems to completely vitiate even the combat use of the spell.

If you cast it on a melee focussed creature, you're casting it against a good save.

And past level, 2 at least half of the dangerous melee creatures aren't humanoids anyway.

Past level 5, the majority of the dangerous melee opponents aren't humanoids (which really calls the function of mass reduce person into question).

So, why would anyone bother with the spell?

 

[AuraSeer]

"Damn, stuck in jail again. If only I were small enough to squeeze between these bars!"

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

You want bad look at Enlarge Person. +2 Str, -2 Dex, and become Large. The benefits are +1 damage, 10 ft reach, and +4 on a few special attacks (grapple, trip, etc...). The negatives are -2 AC (-1 Dex, -1 size), -1 Reflex, -1 Initiative. Your to hit doesn't change (-1 size, +1 str). While there are cases where it would be worth it, for the most part I say hell no.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You see, Enlarge Person still looks very nice to me. Reach weapon+Improved Trip+Combat Reflexes+Enlarge Person would be deadly (As long as the character had a 14+ dex to begin with). The character would threaten a 25 foot radius (from the center of his 10x10' occupied area) and have a large bonus on the opposed trip rolls. Alternately, a monk with improved grapple+enlarge person would also be very deadly. Grappling is a very effective tactic (as long as your foes don't outnumber you).

Even as a straight up damage enhancer for the greatsword wielding goon, it looks nice-- (+4.5 to +5.5 to damage depending upon original strength score (since the greatsword would go to 3d6 damage) and a lot of additional targets for cleaves and/or full attacks due to the greater reach as well as some AoOs due to reach). That seems better than the 1 min/level bull's strength.

The ability to (possibly) squeeze through small spaces doesn't seem like sufficient reason to carry a spell (Reduce Person) though. (At low levels, the opportunity cost of a level 1 slot is too high and at high levels, Blink, Dimension Door, Teleport, etc provide far superior mobility that's useful in far more situations).

And if it's a jail you're stuck in, it shouldn't help unless you're a halfling. After all, everyon knows that halflings are thieves so jails should be built to keep small creatures in.

You want bad look at Enlarge Person. +2 Str, -2 Dex, and become Large. The benefits are +1 damage, 10 ft reach, and +4 on a few special attacks (grapple, trip, etc...). The negatives are -2 AC (-1 Dex, -1 size), -1 Reflex, -1 Initiative. Your to hit doesn't change (-1 size, +1 str). While there are cases where it would be worth it, for the most part I say hell no.

 

[sithramir]

Who cares about squeezing through small spaces. Its called "I need to teleport the group to Waterdeep". But the two fighters weigh near 300 pounds and the cleric in all his armor is insanel heavy!

ZZZZZZZZZZAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPP.

Ok guys i'm going to teleport you now.

"Whats that? Oh Ok i'm ready." You hear in a chipmunk like voice.

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

What was cool about the old reduce and enlarge is that it had its out-of-combat uses.

From what i've read in this thread so far, Reduce Person might be an ok spell to carry around on a scroll, but isn't worth memorizing...

TS

 

[Darklone]

Reduce Person on a spellcaster, then grapple, trip, whatever. Even your rogue should wrestle him down then.

 

[HighlandsBear]

Doesn't it give you +4 on hide?? I know its not in the spell description, but isn't that an assumed result of size change? Your move rate would change too, but that is actually specifically mentioned as not changing.

 

[drnuncheon]

Who cares about squeezing through small spaces. Its called "I need to teleport the group to Waterdeep". But the two fighters weigh near 300 pounds and the cleric in all his armor is insanel heavy!

..except that teleport teleports people now, not weight.

J

 

[Plane Sailing]

Casting it on yourself you get +4 to hide, +1 to hit, +1 to AC so a wizard could use it as a slightly defensive, creeping about spell...

(but I agree - potions or scrolls only really here!)