3 more questions about nonstandard race PCs...

[Piratecat]

Darrr! I'm clearly not looking in the right spot; I checked the DMG, and couldn't find it. Any advice?

1. For a +4 ECL non-monster race (specifically stonegrunts, from Mythic Races, big carved stone people), a 1st lvl cleric is the equivalent of 5th lvl, right?

2. Unlike a monster who starts with skill points, does a PC race like this get x4 skill points at first level? I now know a 4 hd monster wouldn't (they start with their normal skill points), but I assume that a PC race like this would, since there is no other "base" to start from.

3. For a +4 ECL race, at what point do they get bonus feats, every 3 levels like normal, ignoring the ECL? And at what point do they get an ability score increase?

My poor brain hurts!

 

[Lord Ben]

1. Yeah, +4 ECL races with one character level like Cleric are considered 5th level.

2. Yes, they should get 4x their skill points. In some examples in the DMG it mentions this like the races that don't have HD but they have ECL.

3. Most creatures with HD gain a feat every 4 levels. With classes they get them like the class gets including the first level one. This I'm not 100% positive on, but I've never found anything to contradict and I look over NPC's in modules a lot and make my own and this is the rule I follow. IE, a NPC troll with one level of fighter gets 2 more feats. I don't believe they stack in any way with the 2 feats he gets from having 6HD as a giant, so he has to wait 3 levels to get the normal 3rd level feat.

 

[Caliban]

Darrr! I'm clearly not looking in the right spot; I checked the DMG, and couldn't find it. Any advice?

1. For a +4 ECL non-monster race (specifically stonegrunts, from Mythic Races, big carved stone people), a 1st lvl cleric is the equivalent of 5th lvl, right?

Right. +4 "Effective Character Levels" from the Race, +1 Character Level from the class, makes him a 5th level character.

.

2. Unlike a monster who starts with skill points, does a PC race like this get x4 skill points at first level? I now know a 4 hd monster wouldn't (they start with their normal skill points), but I assume that a PC race like this would, since there is no other "base" to start from.

If they don't gain any extra "Monster HD" from their race, then I believe they would get the x4 skill points any other 1HD character gets.

3. For a +4 ECL race, at what point do they get bonus feats, every 3 levels like normal, ignoring the ECL? And at what point do they get an ability score increase?

If you are using the ECL system first introduced in the FRCS, they get them based on their actual class levels, not their class levels +ECL. (So this guy would get his next feat at character level 7, and his first stat increase at character level 8.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

From my reading of the way things would work, the ECL +4 character would be treated in all ways as a 1st level character, but he would need 5000xp to reach 2nd level, then 6000xp to reach 3rd level and so forth.

i.e. treat him as the higher level for determining his advancement rate, but nothing else.

 

[Lord Ben]

For #2 I should probably clarify.

In the DMG where they have examples of the different monsters you can add as templates to the "standard" npc and pc classes they list some as having -3x skill points which basically means you only get 1x as your first level instead of 4x. So unless the monster description specifically says -3x skill points I'd say they get the normal amount for a first level character. Of course if you're using other sources they could have just messed up. In several early 3ed modules they had NPC's like Hobgoblin1/barbarian1 when really hobgoblins don't have any HD of their own and they aren't considered multiclassed. So they might have made mistakes when making their D20 material.

 

[Caliber]

I think Caliban pretty much hit it on the head. Note that Character Level = Class Level + ECL.

Also note that if a monster has HD (say a Hill Giant) then those HD DO count for Feats and Stat ups.

Like a Hill Giant with 6 HD (I actually have no idea how many they normally have .. ) and 3 levels would have feats and stat ups of a 9th level character. At least thats what Soladrian's page seems to be telling me.

 

[Caliban]

I think Caliban pretty much hit it on the head. Note that Character Level = Class Level + ECL.

Also note that if a monster has HD (say a Hill Giant) then those HD DO count for Feats and Stat ups.

Like a Hill Giant with 6 HD (I actually have no idea how many they normally have .. ) and 3 levels would have feats and stat ups of a 9th level character. At least thats what Soladrian's page seems to be telling me.

If your are using the ECL system from the FRCS, I don't think this is true (although it doesn't really cover races with HD).

I think you would get the feats from your Monster HD as layed out in the MM, and the feats from your class levels as layed out in the PHB.

 

[Henrix]

What messes stuff up is that what got published in Dragon #293, for example, is not in accord with FRCS or OA. And obviously an error.

From another thread, Dragon #295 in today!

Another letter points out that while that while that article and the FRCS use ECL, the articles on the Saurials and the Elemental Planetouched use LA (level adjustment). I'll quote the reply in full, since it's pretty much errata:

"The confusion in those articles represents legitimate efforts to clarify both terms. According to the folks in R&D, the new standard is simply that ECL (Effective Character level) is synonymous with character level. For monsters, ECL represents the total level of the monster; that is the sum of the monster's Hit Dice plus level adjustment and class levels. For example, a monster with 3 Hit Dice, special powers that give it a +1 level adjustment, and 2 levels of rogue would have an ECL of 6. Future articles will reflect and explain the terms in this way."

So what we want is the rules from FRCS and OA:

1) No. A 1st level character with an ECL of +4 is a 1st level character. The difference is that a player only may start with such a character if he is allowed to start with 6 000 xp, and when determining how many xp are needed to go up a level, he counts as being four levels higher than he is.

2) Yes. A 1st level character starts with x4 skill points.

3) At their normal for their level. I.e. the above example with the +4 ECL gets a feat at first level (6 000 xp), one at third level (21 000 xp), and so on.


*Sigh!* Why do I have a feeling this confusion will plague us at least until Tooth & Claw comes out!


[Edit]
Notice that what I said above may not be true according to the above quote from Dragon #295.
[/Edit]

 

[kreynolds]

If your are using the ECL system from the FRCS, I don't think this is true (although it doesn't really cover races with HD).

I think you would get the feats from your Monster HD as layed out in the MM, and the feats from your class levels as layed out in the PHB.

That's pretty much how I understand it. A monster gets what they have at the start and that's pretty much it. Everything they have, they already "purchased", or what have you.

 

[Piratecat]

Thank you! Man, I'm going to have a 5th lvl (effectively) PC with 10 hit points! Good thing that race has 10/+2 DR.