30 Levels

[Baby Samurai]

A conversation overheard at Gencon between D&D Brand Manager Scott Rouse and a gamer about the future of D&D-

Scott Rouse: In 4th edition D&D levels all go to thirty now. Look, right across the board, thirty, thirty, thirty and...
Joe Gamer: Oh, I see. And most games only go up to level twenty?
Scott Rouse: Exactly.
Joe Gamer: Does that mean it's better? Is it any better?
Scott Rouse: Well, it's ten levels better, isn't it? It's not twenty. You see, most dudes, you know, will be playing D&D at level twenty. You're on level twenty here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're character is level twenty. Where can you go from there? Where?
Joe Gamer: I don't know.
Scott Rouse: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Joe Gamer: Put it up to thirty levels.
Scott Rouse: Level thirty. Exactly. Ten better.
Joe Gamer: Why don't you just make twenty levels better and make twenty be the highest level and make that a little better?
Scott Rouse: [pause] 4th edition D&D goes to thirty.

Nigel!

 

[Knight Otu]

My question is does this mean that levels 21 - 30 are built in epic levels?

There have been statements that Epic will be built into the Core, but that does not necessarily mean that the Epic range will be level 21+.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm curious as to how this will affect the CR system (assuming there will be a CR system) and the monster manual. There aren't too many CR 20-30 monsters out there.

That's really not a problem, since there will be a 4e Monster Manual as well

I'm quite sure an effort is being done to make monsters a further step closed to characters, as already started by 3.0 and 3.5, and this might help making the CR system more solid.

 

[Sadrik]

I can totally see 8th and 9th level spells falling into the 21st+ level range and making only those spells save or die. That would be very cool in my book. Push that unfun crap to the regions I have no interest in playing... but leave it for those who do enjoy that stuff.

 

[Razz]

Wow, just like a freaking video game...

Scott Rouse: "We increased the level cap to 30"
Duped Masses: "Yayyy!! More power!"

4E is getting worse the more I hear about it...

 

[mhensley]

Wow, just like a freaking video game...

Now that you mention it, I'm guessing that their future D&D video game plans were a major factor in the move to 30 levels. A problem that many players found in the DDO game was the lack of levels compared to WoW.

 

[Someone]

4e! Now with 50% more levels!!!

 

[BlackMoria]

I am not clear on this concept. Thirty levels can mean several different things.

1. It can mean 4e 30 levels ~ 3.5 20 levels + 10 epic.

2. It can be like AE in which characters can go to 25th level, except that 4E will go to 30th.

3. It can mean that the 4.0 30 levels ~ 3.5 20 levels.

Certain statements, like prolonging the sweet spot suggest that item 3 might be the method.

However, other statements, like build in epic play suggest that items 1 or 2 might be the method but runs counter to prolonging the sweet spot.

Color me confused.... so what do they mean when they say 30 levels?

 

[EricNoah]

My guess is that for levels 1-20, power level will be roughly equivalent to the same in 3.x. I think the "new" thing for 4e is treating levels 21-30 not as some kind weird exception to the rule (the rule of BAB, saves, skill points, feat acquisition, spellcasting ability, and class feature acquisition going up as you go up in levels) but as simply "more levels".

 

[broghammerj]

So they extended the sweet spot! Does anyone really believe this? I am sure they tried to simplify gameplay at high levels. In 3.5, when my PC hit 16th I had to start using a laptop to keep track of all the paperwork. It got rather tedious. Simplified that would be better.

My main concern is play testing. How do you really get a feel for the new "sweet spot" without playing a campaign through from level 1 to level 30. I don't think they had the time or the resources to carry it out. From the press releases it also sounds like the product is still in development since they are talking about future playtesters. Again making me think this is a lot of hooey (I mean hype).