D&D 4E 4e Constitution - what a waste of time !

[deleteme123456]

In general, I find about 10-15 minutes between rooms is enough for a party of 5 with one leader, and usually this makes sense, they're searching the room/looting the bodies/disabling any remaining traps, etc. The cleric probably doesn't have to healing word everyone, many people will be close enough to full or full with just their own surge value, and if you're only going to be down 2-3 HP you just suck it up and let the cleric use the word on someone else.

If you have a low-level Bard, you don't have to play any games since everyone can just add the bard's CHA mod to all surges spent at the end of the rest. Sadly this degrades again at 6th level where the bard healing power is 1d6+CHA.

If you're going to stick it your players that they can't use healing powers between encounters more or less freely (as has been encouraged, repeatedly, and confirmed, by multiple inquires to WotC), well, then that's your stick to beat I guess. If there was a real pressing reason why they should just press on to the next room without delay, I would look for a good roleplaying / story device to encourage this rather than the wandering monster just attacking them. Alternatively, you could do something like add 1-2 minions of the party level or level +1 for every 5 minutes they spend resting. It's not going to drastically change the fight, but it will make it slightly more challenging, and it's just a negative reinforcement cycle--the longer the rest, the harder the next fight is, the more surges they have to use, the fewer encounters they can get through in a day. You just reintroduce the problem you're trying to solve (use fewer surges) by doing this.

 

[twilsemail]

In general, I find about 10-15 minutes between rooms is enough for a party of 5 with one leader, and usually this makes sense, they're searching the room/looting the bodies/disabling any remaining traps, etc.

This isn't resting.

If you have a low-level Bard, you don't have to play any games since everyone can just add the bard's CHA mod to all surges spent at the end of the rest. Sadly this degrades again at 6th level where the bard healing power is 1d6+CHA.

Bards are awesome like that. Also, letting the cleric use unlimited healing powers gimps the bard more than a little.

If you're going to stick it your players that they can't use healing powers between encounters more or less freely (as has been encouraged, repeatedly, and confirmed, by multiple inquires to WotC), well, then that's your stick to beat I guess.

I'll acknowledge that they've comfirmed that the rules allow this to happen. I've no doubt of that, and my players are free to attempt it. If they're in the middle of a dungeon... well combat ain't quiet and there's bound to be someone who heard you. 5 minutes. Fine, that's time for them to get themselves together in the next room. More than that and they're hunting for you.

If there was a real pressing reason why they should just press on to the next room without delay, I would look for a good roleplaying / story device to encourage this rather than the wandering monster just attacking them. Alternatively, you could do something like add 1-2 minions of the party level or level +1 for every 5 minutes they spend resting. It's not going to drastically change the fight, but it will make it slightly more challenging, and it's just a negative reinforcement cycle--the longer the rest, the harder the next fight is, the more surges they have to use, the fewer encounters they can get through in a day.

That's certainly an alternative. Wandering monster is probably a poor choice of words, again. If they're in a dungeon, there's critters in there. I tend to map out where critters are in my dungeons and adjust their locations based on PC actions and time tables. Outdoors the PCs would probably be fine camping after an ambush, but that also means my ambushes tend to be harsh and there's a need to take a bit of a break.

You just reintroduce the problem you're trying to solve (use fewer surges) by doing this.

I don't follow. Why would "use fewer surges" be my goal? My players tend to work the heck out of their adventuring day, getting between 4 and 6 encounters per day. They spend almost all, if not all of their surges between waking and sleeping. This seems to be the formula that WotC intended. By the time they rest they've generally used up all of their dailies and item powers and are low, if not out of Action points. If they had more surges, then they'd most likely just go to sleep with a few left over.

 

[deleteme123456]

EH, the bard could use a little gimping. He's kinda crazy good anyway. Have you seen the Virtue of Valor build? "I grant absurd amounts of temp HP to all my allies!" Our latest house rule was that ability doesn't work on minions.

As for "fewer surges," I must have misunderstood, it seemed like you were arguing for encouraging players to use a lot of surges between every encounter (by not allowing leader powers), which would in turn lead a shorter work day, but if you're getting through 4-6 without leader powers between combats, then that's really good and obviously your party knows exactly what they're doing, and doesn't have any reckless/suicidal PCs like some of the campaigns I play in, where the warlock is dying before some of the PCs have even acted [he rolled high on initiative, and went in, guns blazing so to speak, and left himself wide open to counterattack. he deserved it, absolutely, but it makes it hard for the rest of the group to press on when this joker is out of surges after 2-3 fights.]

 

[twilsemail]

They put a leash on the Ranger. No Really.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

In general, I find about 10-15 minutes between rooms is enough for a party of 5 with one leader, and usually this makes sense, they're searching the room/looting the bodies/disabling any remaining traps, etc. The cleric probably doesn't have to healing word everyone, many people will be close enough to full or full with just their own surge value, and if you're only going to be down 2-3 HP you just suck it up and let the cleric use the word on someone else.

^This. I don't think that most parties would be taking 8 short rests because of the efficiency of how the Cleric heals. Even in the worst case scenario of everyone at 1HP after the fight, the Cleric would only 6 rests for a 5 man party (5 * 2 Healing Words, plus another rest to recharge them).

If you have a low-level Bard, you don't have to play any games since everyone can just add the bard's CHA mod to all surges spent at the end of the rest. Sadly this degrades again at 6th level where the bard healing power is 1d6+CHA.

That's a good option for a party without a Cleric. It essentially makes everyone like a Dragonborn, where they get a bonus to each surge.

If you're going to stick it your players that they can't use healing powers between encounters more or less freely (as has been encouraged, repeatedly, and confirmed, by multiple inquires to WotC), well, then that's your stick to beat I guess. If there was a real pressing reason why they should just press on to the next room without delay, I would look for a good roleplaying / story device to encourage this rather than the wandering monster just attacking them. Alternatively, you could do something like add 1-2 minions of the party level or level +1 for every 5 minutes they spend resting. It's not going to drastically change the fight, but it will make it slightly more challenging, and it's just a negative reinforcement cycle--the longer the rest, the harder the next fight is, the more surges they have to use, the fewer encounters they can get through in a day. You just reintroduce the problem you're trying to solve (use fewer surges) by doing this.

This seems to be the crux of the issue, that many people don't like the Cleric healing everyone up between encounters. The problem is that the system was designed with the premise in mind that Leaders increase the efficiency of healing between encounters as well as providing additional healing during the encounter itself. Why do you think spells that don't use surges, like the Pally's Lay on Hands and Cure Light Wounds, are dailies? It's to prevent them from getting spammed between encounters.

The second issue is the whole 5 minute thing. Honestly, it's just an arbitrary number. 5 minutes, 15 minutes, most of the time (as in 95%+) it doesn't matter. Doesn't the DMG suggest a 10% per hour for encounter wandering patrols if the PC's decide to take an extended rest in a dungeon? That would put the chance at 2.5% for a 15 minute rest...so if you suddenly just decide "Well, the Cleric's healing them? Wandering monsters...muahahaha", won't your players find it strange that they can rest for 6 hours without encountering ANY?

Let's look at the 5 minute thing some more though. Say you're fighting in room A, and you clear out the enemies. There's bad guys in room B down the hall, so you take a short rest of 5 minutes. The bad guys now wait patiently for you to come...but only for 5 minutes. You take 10, or maybe 15? They'll break down the door and charge you... That sort of logic just doesn't make sense in the MAJORITY of encounters. In some, yes, but not most. Most of the time the PC's should have ample time to extend their rest a bit and have their Leader heal them, within reason.

Lastly, you can always encourage your players to hurry things up a bit. Perhaps a subtle, "You start to hear sounds from nearby of others searching. Best to hurry up before they find you." might motivate your players to get a move on. Or, just openly tell your players that they should look at their hitpoints and see if they really need to waste time waiting for the Cleric, or if they can just heal up themselves. After combat with my Dragonborn Fighter, for example, I often find that waiting for the Cleric won't really save me any surges because of the bonus to surge value I get from my 16 CON. So if I don't need the extra boost, I just spend surges as normal so that we can get moving faster. Or if I'm just a couple HP's from full, and it would require ANOTHER 5 minutes? Well, I just suck it up and say "I'm fine, let's get going."

 

[FadedC]

Twilsemail,

Others have covered it somewhat but to make sure you understand, the thing you are confused about is that you are assuming that if the cleric uses all his healing words during the combat then the fighter has no choice but to spend 4 healing surges to go from empty to full. This is not true. The party can just take a short rest, recharging the clerics healing words and then he can use them again. They can then take a second short rest to get them back again. This is standard practice in most adventuring parties.

There might be some rare cases when the party has time to take a 5 minute rest but does not have time to take a 10 minute rest. But I would not expect this to come up very often.

 

[twilsemail]

^This. I don't think that most parties would be taking 8 short rests because of the efficiency of how the Cleric heals. Even in the worst case scenario of everyone at 1HP after the fight, the Cleric would only 6 rests for a 5 man party (5 * 2 Healing Words, plus another rest to recharge them).

see disclaimor at the bottom of the post, please.

This seems to be the crux of the issue, that many people don't like the Cleric healing everyone up between encounters. The problem is that the system was designed with the premise in mind that Leaders increase the efficiency of healing between encounters as well as providing additional healing during the encounter itself. Why do you think spells that don't use surges, like the Pally's Lay on Hands and Cure Light Wounds, are dailies? It's to prevent them from getting spammed between encounters.

I'm fine with the cleric healing the party if he's got the powers to do so. I'm not fine with the party hanging out for 5-25 minutes waiting for the clerics powers to recharge over and over again. I don't find it thematically appropriate. It seems a bit anticlimactic to me. This isn't a rules call, it's a flavor call. Obviously it's up to each DM to make this decision.

The second issue is the whole 5 minute thing. Honestly, it's just an arbitrary number. 5 minutes, 15 minutes, most of the time (as in 95%+) it doesn't matter. Doesn't the DMG suggest a 10% per hour for encounter wandering patrols if the PC's decide to take an extended rest in a dungeon? That would put the chance at 2.5% for a 15 minute rest...so if you suddenly just decide "Well, the Cleric's healing them? Wandering monsters...muahahaha"

It's not a random patrol, at least in my case. It's the party alerting nearby monsters that they're there and killing their buddies. Then again my monsters get names and such and cry out for friends in combat... If your monsters are just bags of XP sitting around waiting to be killed, I guess that's different. I try to run a dynamic dungeon.

won't your players find it strange that they can rest for 6 hours without encountering ANY?

I can't imagine they would. They've never had a successful extended rest in a dungeon. Correction: They had one where they spend an hour or so fortifying a room. Sealing Nail and all.

Let's look at the 5 minute thing some more though. Say you're fighting in room A, and you clear out the enemies. There's bad guys in room B down the hall, so you take a short rest of 5 minutes. The bad guys now wait patiently for you to come...but only for 5 minutes. You take 10, or maybe 15? They'll break down the door and charge you... That sort of logic just doesn't make sense in the MAJORITY of encounters. In some, yes, but not most. Most of the time the PC's should have ample time to extend their rest a bit and have their Leader heal them, within reason.

My game takes place in a world where adventuring is the norm. There are towns built around catering to adventurers going to the nearby dungeon/cave/ruins. There are famed adventuring parties traveling like rock bands. The place is at least a bit like the world of Tarol Hunt's Goblins.

Monsters understand what to expect when adventurers are in the area. After they're done killing their buddies, the adventurers are coming after them. The monsters think defensively and prepare for what's coming. As such, I've got most of my encounters planned out accordingly.

If players leave one encounter and head straight to the next, the monsters are surprised as heck. Why didn't they rest. The one time this happened the PCs came into a room with a huddle of goblins forming their plan.

If they walk in after a 5 minute rest, the critters are generally ready for them.

If the monsters don't see the PCs soon, they go hunting. They also send runners to inform others.

Circumstances can certainly change the reactions in many ways. Heck once the PCs set up an ambush when they knew there were forewarned monsters down the hall. Other times the cowardly goblins, having a way out, just ran for their lives. The players yelled at me for stealing their XP. I told them that they sat around for 10 minutes after making all that racket in a goblin fort. What did they expect? We talked it out and they said that the goblins' response was more reasonable than they wanted to admit, especially for minions.

Lastly, you can always encourage your players to hurry things up a bit. Perhaps a subtle, "You start to hear sounds from nearby of others searching. Best to hurry up before they find you." might motivate your players to get a move on. Or, just openly tell your players that they should look at their hitpoints and see if they really need to waste time waiting for the Cleric, or if they can just heal up themselves. After combat with my Dragonborn Fighter, for example, I often find that waiting for the Cleric won't really save me any surges because of the bonus to surge value I get from my 16 CON. So if I don't need the extra boost, I just spend surges as normal so that we can get moving faster. Or if I'm just a couple HP's from full, and it would require ANOTHER 5 minutes? Well, I just suck it up and say "I'm fine, let's get going."

I address most of this a few centimeters up, I think.

One of the big issues in this discussion is the kind of game people want. Simulationists wouldn't want to calculate how to get the most HPs and then rest that exact ammount of time. Competetors/number crunchers would flip if their DM didn't encourage exactly that.

FadedC - please reread my posts and try to acknowledge the following. I understand that a short rest allows you to recharge encounter power. I understand that there is nothing, mechanically, stopping PCs from taking 17* short rests in a row if they like. I understand that Mosters do not have magical glue stuck to their feet keeping them rooted to a spot until seen by PCs. I understand that Combat is loud and may attact nearby, unglued, monsters. While it is mechanically acceptable for a group of PCs to rest as long as they like, I do not feel it's thematically appropriate.

* I like hyperbole. I'll try to keep this note in my posts.

 

[Caliban]

It's not a random patrol, at least in my case. It's the party alerting nearby monsters that they're there and killing their buddies. Then again my monsters get names and such and cry out for friends in combat... If your monsters are just bags of XP sitting around waiting to be killed, I guess that's different. I try to run a dynamic dungeon.

So, what you are basically saying that the way you run a game is the best way, and if someone else runs it differently they are a poor DM.

Yeah, like I'm going to take anything you say seriously after that self-important bit of tripe. (I like hyperbole too.)

 

[twilsemail]

Edit: This post had no relevance to the topic at hand and has been removed by the poster.

 

[KlassyReborn]

I think what WotC did with Constitution is the same with other stats. They made it so that only a few stats are relevant to a specific class, and on top of that, it's only good for endurance.

Hmm, here I was trying to argue the point, but the more i try and find arguments, the more i find that the topic may be right. I wouldn't say it's a COMPLETE waste of time, because if you're not a str class, it could help wioth fort defense.