D&D 4E 4e Constitution - what a waste of time !

Doctor Proctor

First Post
If you're going into your second encounter with absolutely no healing surges that means that you've either dumped con and thus only have 4 (the max you should ever have to spend in a short rest to gain your hp back) or your DM is throwing such a difficult encounter at you that the entire party had to use their second wind, get healed repeatedly by multiple leaders and had more potions then a wizards alchemy lab to use. This is not a flaw in the healing surge system rather an issue in character/encounter design.

Yeah, no kidding. A surge is 1/4 of your HP, so even if you came out of the encounter with only 1 HP then 4 surges will get you back up to full. So if you dumped an 8 into CON then that's 8 surges to use. Second Wind eats up 1, and if you were healed twice by a leader then that's 2 more. Then you use 2 more during the short rest to fully heal, and you have 3 more. That's enough to get through a second encounter if it was of similar difficulty. This character might be a good candidate for Durability as well, which would mean possibly 3 encounters if you were able to reduce your damage somewhat in one of them.

Now, if you burned through your Second Wind, got healed two times and then drank 3 or 4 potions during the encounter, then something is wrong.
 

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Istar

First Post
I love it when people compare 3.5 to 4.0 like they are compatible. Love it even more when they start a thread with a statement as if the point they are making is a foregone conclusion.

Healing Surges Healing Surges Healing Surges. I know they are a knew concept and 3.5 minds are still in the old Con=WAY too many hit points thinking, but the time has come to move on. Admitadly, when I first picked up the book and read the rules, my initial reaction was "WHAT THE!". Given a hundred re-reads and hour after hour of play, I have to say that 4th edition Hit point calc is simply the smarter, more mature, more intelligent sibling of 3.5

Constitution = Vigor for the day rather than just "I can take SOOO much damage". They are a master stroke on behalf of the designers and make Con into a vital statistic (Whom I believe was the cheif in the Asterix comics)

YOu think I am that up to date... no no no !!!

I was comparing 2nd Edition to 4e :)
 

FadedC

First Post
An important thing to add here too is that unless your party has no leaders, then it doesn't actually require 4 healing surges to heal from 0 to full. Leaders can heal people for more then their surge value, often by a very large margin. A cleric can often bring someone from 0 to full with only 2 spent surges just by using his healing words.

So yeah barring extraordinary circumstances it's pretty much impossible to run out of healing surges in a single encounter. Even with tough fights it should generally require 3 before it starts to get difficult, and if you your using more attrition based fights then it can require 6 or more.
 

twilsemail

First Post
Aside from a Level one wizard, who's going from E to full in 2 surges with a leader? I guess if your leader doesn't use the Healing Words/Inspiring Word/Restorative Formula in combat it might happen.
 

Mengu

First Post
I've seen a 10 constitution rogue go through 5 out of his 6 healing surges in one encounter (including the rest at the end of the encounter). He got healed by the cleric once, and used his second wind, spent the other 3 during the short rest. He failed a number of saves against ongoing damage. This wasn't even a difficult encounter, merely a level+1. There was some unfortunate positioning at the beginning of the combat, but that stuff happens.

If he had a 14 Con instead of a 10, he would have used 4 surges out of 8. That's a huge difference.

At higher levels the difference is not quite as drastic, but I hate a short adventuring day, so more surges are always good, at least in my games.
 

Doctor Proctor

First Post
Aside from a Level one wizard, who's going from E to full in 2 surges with a leader? I guess if your leader doesn't use the Healing Words/Inspiring Word/Restorative Formula in combat it might happen.

Most people don't end an encounter with only 1 hitpoint. When a Cleric casts Healing Work they add their Wis mod (let's assume a +4 for a Laser Cleric) plus an additional 1d6 hitpoints (average 3.5). So if you take your healing surge value and add 7.5 HP you'll have the average number of hit points healed.

Take a TWF Ranger, for example. If he's got 12 CON he'll have 29 hitpoints (he gets an extra +5 from the free toughness) and a urge value of 7 HP. So a Cleric casting Healing Word almost doubles the healing value of this Ranger. This character actually can be healed from 1 HP to full in 2 Healing Words.

Let's go up to 5h level with a STR/CON Fighter and see what happens now. Assuming a 16 CON (bumped to 17 at 4th) he'll have 56 hitpoints, and a surge value of 14. This is double the surge value of the 1st level Ranger, but the extra healing ability of the Cleric is still coming out to an additional 50% healing above and beyond the normal surge value. This means that two Healing Words should heal for an average of 43 hitpoints. Or, to put it another way, this Fighter can be healed from only 13 hitpoints to his full HP value (On a side note, if this was a Dragonborn you could add an extra 3 HP to each surge used, even if it's because of Healing Word. So he would actually be easier to heal, and he could get to full in two surges from only 9 HP.)

At 6th level though, this Fighter will have only gained an extra 6 hitpoints for a total of 62 HP. Assuming he also took Toughness he would have a total of 67, for a surge value of 16. It's not a big increase, but it did jump a couple of points. The Cleric, on the other hand, now adds 2d6 extra hitpoints to a Healing Word, which is an extra 7 points on average (11 total when you add in the +4 WIS mod). At 8th level, assuming WIS was bumped at 4th and 8th levels, you can add another HP to that for a total of 8 HP added to the normal surge value.

So yea, it's actually not that hard to heal someone up in 2 or 3 surges as long as your Cleric has a high WIS. Even if your PC was reduced down to his bloody value he might be able to get mostly healed with only 1 surge. With our 5th level Fighter, for example, he could go from 31 (his bloodied value) to 54 with one Healing Word. That's a mere 6 HP (9.6%) below his maximum hit points. I would consider that "ready for the next encounter".
 

twilsemail

First Post
Did no one else in the fight get hit? If that's the case either your fighter is the best defender ever, or the fight isn't challenging enough. Almost every character in our games ends up spending at least one surge per encounter (with the exception of the Archer Ranger when we had one).

Generally Healing Word gets used when someone is bloodied. While it's sometimes the same person, it's not always. If the healer was just healing the fighter, everyone else would lynch him. Dungeons and Theories is great, but at the table I can't see someone going from 9 to full. They're going to get hit again. Someone else is going to need healing. Something will happen.

I can concede that a cleric can do the job if he holds his healing until after the fight. I'm not used to them in a game. We've generally got a Warlord or an Artificer. I know the artificer doesn't work well, but we like the flavor of the class. Apparently they were something different in 3.5, something worse/broken.
 

jorrit

First Post
Yeah, no kidding. A surge is 1/4 of your HP, so even if you came out of the encounter with only 1 HP then 4 surges will get you back up to full. So if you dumped an 8 into CON then that's 8 surges to use. Second Wind eats up 1, and if you were healed twice by a leader then that's 2 more. Then you use 2 more during the short rest to fully heal, and you have 3 more. That's enough to get through a second encounter if it was of similar difficulty. This character might be a good candidate for Durability as well, which would mean possibly 3 encounters if you were able to reduce your damage somewhat in one of them.

Now, if you burned through your Second Wind, got healed two times and then drank 3 or 4 potions during the encounter, then something is wrong.

Just for the records, there are creatures (wight and wraith for example) that can remove healing surges when they hit.

Greetings,
 

Doctor Proctor

First Post
Did no one else in the fight get hit? If that's the case either your fighter is the best defender ever, or the fight isn't challenging enough. Almost every character in our games ends up spending at least one surge per encounter (with the exception of the Archer Ranger when we had one).

Huh? I used the example of a Fighter, not because no one else gets hit, but because he will usually have the highest hitpoints of anyone in the party. You're original contention was essentially "Yeah, that would for a 1st level Wizard...", I was merely showing that it works at most levels. A 5th level Fighter is a good example because it's right before the 6th level bump where the Cleric moves up to 2d6 extra HP healed.

Generally Healing Word gets used when someone is bloodied. While it's sometimes the same person, it's not always. If the healer was just healing the fighter, everyone else would lynch him. Dungeons and Theories is great, but at the table I can't see someone going from 9 to full. They're going to get hit again. Someone else is going to need healing. Something will happen.

I can concede that a cleric can do the job if he holds his healing until after the fight. I'm not used to them in a game. We've generally got a Warlord or an Artificer. I know the artificer doesn't work well, but we like the flavor of the class. Apparently they were something different in 3.5, something worse/broken.
I was mostly talking about after the fight healing, since there were many saying stuff like "Yeah, but you're gonna burn 4 surges after the fight!" when it's just not true most of the time. You either won't be all the way down to 1HP, or you'll have a leader that can increase healing effectiveness.

As for healing in battle though, the numbers still apply. That Fighter I mentioned? He can get healed from his bloodied value up to ~90% of his total HP value in only one Healing Word. That's a perfect example of combat effectiveness. Even if he ends up getting healed twice and using his second wind though, that's 3 surges out of 12 (he had 16 CON), hardly a significant number. Then it would take no more than 2 Healing Words to get him back up to full after the fight...so worst case scenario, if he just got FUBAR'ed during the encounter, he burned 5 surges.

Lastly, every fight is different. I play a Fighter, and there's been combats where I've been dropped twice, and combats where I've been hit only once (It was a combination of the DM missing when he attacked me, and my own team actually blocking a corridor and not letting me attack...). There will be situations where people need 2 heals from the Cleric, and there will be situations where the Cleric might end the combat only having used one Healing Word. I was just giving the math on how much more effective a Cleric is at squeezing more HP out of the party's surges.

Just for the records, there are creatures (wight and wraith for example) that can remove healing surges when they hit.

Greetings,

I really don't see how that matters much here. Those are two enemy types, the lowest of which are levels 4 and 5 respectively. By that point, you've had 3 opportunities to pick up Durability if your character is frequently running low on surges.

Additionally, looking at the Wights the level 4 and 5 version are a Controller and a Skirmisher. Since it's only their melee At-Will that drains a surge, it shouldn't come into play all that much. Ultimately though, these are two enemy types out of the entire MM. How many times are you really going to run into healing surge draining enemies? Your DM also knows what they're capable of, and should be planning his encounters accordingly. Its an obstacle, but it's hardly something that brings the entire healing system crashing down.
 
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twilsemail

First Post
Huh? I used the example of a Fighter, not because no one else gets hit, but because he will usually have the highest hitpoints of anyone in the party. You're original contention was essentially "Yeah, that would for a 1st level Wizard...", I was merely showing that it works at most levels. A 5th level Fighter is a good example because it's right before the 6th level bump where the Cleric moves up to 2d6 extra HP healed.

and I conceded that, were he to use two healing words during an extended rest, the cleric could bump the fighter to full. That's leaving everyone else high and dry. I did a poor job summarizing what I was trying to say earlier and am still doing a bad job of it now. Using both of the clerics healing words (which were miraculously not used during the fight) in between fights on the same guy seems like a waste to me. Resting 8 times so the cleric can use his healing word 16 times seems downright rediculous (although I know people do it). Were it to happen in my game, BAM wandering monster. Probably level+5.

Half an hour or an hour between rooms isn't how D&D is meant to be played.

You either won't be all the way down to 1HP, or you'll have a leader that can increase healing effectiveness.
...for two healing surges.

As for healing in battle though, the numbers still apply. That Fighter I mentioned? He can get healed from his bloodied value up to ~90% of his total HP value in only one Healing Word. That's a perfect example of combat effectiveness. Even if he ends up getting healed twice and using his second wind though, that's 3 surges out of 12 (he had 16 CON), hardly a significant number. Then it would take no more than 2 Healing Words to get him back up to full after the fight...so worst case scenario, if he just got FUBAR'ed during the encounter, he burned 5 surges.

My point, as said above, is that unless he needs it and no one else does, only healing the fighter is an unrealistic scenario (in a fantasy setting everything is unrealistic... Maybe I should re-examine my argument).

Lastly, every fight is different. I play a Fighter, and there's been combats where I've been dropped twice, and combats where I've been hit only once (It was a combination of the DM missing when he attacked me, and my own team actually blocking a corridor and not letting me attack...). There will be situations where people need 2 heals from the Cleric, and there will be situations where the Cleric might end the combat only having used one Healing Word. I was just giving the math on how much more effective a Cleric is at squeezing more HP out of the party's surges.

I think I'm argruing the wrong thing at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. Yes, the cleric can heal someone back to full in 2 surges (conceded this earlier). I think it's an ill-conceived use of resources* (again, unless needed like your fighter going down twice in one fight). If, miraculously, your fighter is the only one taking damage then you should feel free to use all of your resources on him. I would expect others to need the healing more, as the fighter has more surges available for healing between fights.

* I don't mean this as an insult and please don't take it that way. I'm saying that I think that there are better ways to use those resources.
 

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