D&D 4E 4e Playtesters revealed!

[DaveMage]

Be cool. Don't hurt other peoples' feelings. And if it ain't your game, it doesn't mean it's not the game for others.*

For the record, I have no problem with other people liking 4E - just as I have no problem with people liking Mutants & Masterminds. It's not my playstyle, but I don't begrudge anyone wanting to play that way.

The problem had already been identified and corrected before D&D XP. The characters were created before that round of changes, and nobody thought to make sure the changes had been implemented to them.

I stand corrected.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

The problem had already been identified and corrected before D&D XP. The characters were created before that round of changes, and nobody thought to make sure the changes had been implemented to them.

There was full rules playtesting, but not everyone took part in it. We used a mix of the two approaches.

Mike - You know, it'd probably help if WotC did a better job of sharing info with the fan base. There have been many, many "OK...so I was wrong" admissions from fair-minded folks who realized their fears/complaints were unfounded, but it has often happened after the damage was done. Damage, in this case, being that monster known as Nerd Rage.

I wish more had been shared in the early going, thereby perhaps limiting the plaintive howling to only a few folks - and you'll have those types no matter what you do, so long as what you're doing is different from their current schtick.

Anyways, I sincerely appreciate your participation on this thread and wish we would see more of that - though I understand you're busy.

Thanks,
Wis

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I named my first kid Robilar.

Off topic, but I'm not sure if you're joking or serious there. Did you really name your first child Robilar? And if so, how did you get your wife to agree to the name?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Naw, though I would have like to. We went with my wife's choice - which was Elminster.

Kid gets decked every day and is afraid to go to gym class.

I kid, I kid.

Wis

 

[mearls]

Mike - You know, it'd probably help if WotC did a better job of sharing info with the fan base. There have been many, many "OK...so I was wrong" admissions from fair-minded folks who realized their fears/complaints were unfounded, but it has often happened after the damage was done. Damage, in this case, being that monster known as Nerd Rage.

I wish more had been shared in the early going, thereby perhaps limiting the plaintive howling to only a few folks - and you'll have those types no matter what you do, so long as what you're doing is different from their current schtick.

Anyways, I sincerely appreciate your participation on this thread and wish we would see more of that - though I understand you're busy.

I think there are two things at work.

WotC-ites like myself are but one voice among many. It's easy for someone to just miss the post where we correct someone. I think in most cases, people are simply misinformed when it comes to factual inaccuracies.

OTOH, there are people who want to distort what someone from WotC says. They're eager to see 4e cast in a negative light, and explanations or the truth mean nothing to them. The have their One True Way, and things like details or facts are meaningless.

 

[nerfherder]

It's easy for someone to just miss the post where we correct someone.

If you want a post to be noticed and quoted all over ENW and the WotC boards, then just drop some hint about one of the new classes in the PHB2 staring with B, or something.

OK, so your point would probably get lost in amongst the cries of "Bard!" and "Barbarian!", but you never know...

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Naw, though I would have like to. We went with my wife's choice - which was Elminster.

Kid gets decked every day and is afraid to go to gym class.

I kid, I kid.

Wis

I thought that you were joking, but I have learnt that there are some strange people in the world and I try not to assume anything anymore!

Olaf the Stout

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

I thought that you were joking, but I have learnt that there are some strange people in the world and I try not to assume anything anymore!

Olaf the Stout

I noticed you didn't ask whether I remodeled my bathroom after the City of Brass. You must not think that was strange, eh?

Somewhere, by the way, there's a gamer who did name his kid Robilar...and he's weeping.

Wis

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I noticed you didn't ask whether I remodeled my bathroom after the City of Brass. You must not think that was strange, eh?

Somewhere, by the way, there's a gamer who did name his kid Robilar...and he's weeping.

Wis

Don't be silly, we all know any gamer that wanted to name his offspring Robilar wouldn't have a hope of getting within 10ft of a woman, let alone have relations with her!

And bathrooms are temporary, names are forever (or at least until the kid is old enough to change it themself).

Olaf the Stout

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think the flavor issues boil down to a simple issue: what does it change at the table? Does it make more sense for a subtle manipulator to work for devils, or for demons?

On that score, I think the change does make the game more fun, because it places a creature in a better context. You aren't stuck building your devil adventure, wishing that the succubus was in the devil column. If you have to go through a series of design contortions for that classification to make sense, it's time for that classification to go.

Well, I don't want to get bogged down in this particular example. My point was that you would have had a much more receptive audience for rules fixes without the incremental aggravation of setting changes. At some point, the scale tips, the hackles go up, and even good rules changes start to look like "too much."

But... Back to the succubus for a second. Your question about the "subtle manipulator" being better suited to devils than to demons is sort of predicated on another change-- that demons are now primal forces of chaos and destruction and no longer particularly interested in the corruption of mortal souls.

I was very happy to see the succubus and the erinyes folded together, though. <shrug> What can I say, you have an impossible task pleasing all tastes.

In a way, it's about applying a sense of balance of sorts to monsters. Orcs are big brutes, so we don't design them as great archers. That's more of a gnoll thing. Goblin archers are better snipers. On one hand, design restrictions like that might seem needlessly limiting, but the payoff is that each monster type does a better job of exerting its unique flavor and feel at the table.

I think that's in direct contradiction to the point you just made for the succubus.

If I am designing an Orc adventure, and I am looking for a good archer, he's over here in the Gnoll column.

"All orcs are brutes" and "All gnolls are archers" might do a great job of exerting the flavor and feel of "EveryOrc" and "EveryGnoll" but I am not sure that "unique" is the term I would use to describe a catch-all specialty of an entire race of creatures. Mog the Orc Archer is unique-- and if he's better suited as a gnoll, well...