4e/WotC: Pro- or Anti- why do you care?

[Azgulor]

<snip -- lots of good stuff>

Thanks, Dausuul. This is the kind of info I was seeking. I tried to give you xp, to no avail.

 

[Azgulor]

But those threads aren't an attempt to start an edition war, IMO. The questions seem to stem from the mutability of 4E. And I see it as a legitimate question whether there are certain changes WotC could make that would change your mind about 4E.

1st sentence: Agree. Didn't view them as Edition War fodder.
2nd sentence: Immaterial to this thread (at least as I see it).
3rd sentence: Granted that question may be legit, but why would a 4e fan care? If someone's left a RPG behind, chances are pretty good that the changes that'd bring them back would significantly - if not fundamentally - change the RPG. Unless you're hoping for a new edition. So if you're a 4e fan and you're happy with the system -- why would you care what changes would bring a 4e critic back to 4e?!?

Conversely, if you're a PF fan and not a 4e fan, why would you care what changes a 4e fan wants since (presumably) they'd inject 4e design philosophies into the game?!?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

1st sentence: Agree. Didn't view them as Edition War fodder.

I misunderstood you then. You were replying to Crothian's comments, which specifically related to edition wars.

3rd sentence: Granted that question may be legit, but why would a 4e fan care? If someone's left a RPG behind, chances are pretty good that the changes that'd bring them back would significantly - if not fundamentally - change the RPG. Unless you're hoping for a new edition. So if you're a 4e fan and you're happy with the system -- why would you care what changes would bring a 4e critic back to 4e?!?

You're making an assumption that just because I am currently happy with my edition of choice that I don't want to see changes made to it. I like change. The only edition to date that I did not whole-heartedly like was 2E, becuase IMO they didn't change the system enough for me to spend money on new books. Finding out what aspects a lot of people like about various editions can lead to a future edition that works better for more people.

 

[Crothian]

If someone asks "What could WotC do to win you back?" or "what changes to 4e would bring you back", how is that not trying to bring someone back into 'the D&D fold'. (Conversely, "What PF changes would get you to try it?" is the same idea.)

That is just two threads in the War that has spanned hundreds of them. It wasn't Wizards that started them it was fans. So, even if someone gives the blueprint to getting more players in the fold it doesn't do anyone any good because the fans aren't the ones that can change the game.

If you're telling me no one is doing this and it's all about "Less Filling/Tastes Great" then move along citizen, I guess there's nothing to see here. That hasn't been my experience, however.

You seem to be seeing what a few people are doing and assuming that everyone is doing it. The Wars are not fought on united fronts. Each gamer has their own agenda and play by their own rules. Some of the people from these threads are just there to smack the bee hive. Some might actually care what people play and try to convince them otherwise. Some are just trying to understand where people are coming from to enhance their own understanding.

 

[Retreater]

As the original poster of the "what did 4E get RIGHT?" thread, I thought I would chime in on why I started the thread.

First, I didn't intend to create an edition war, which I stated as a disclaimer on my post. I wanted to begin a civil discourse to find out what - in fellow ENWorlders' opinions - were the most appealing aspects of 4E for a non-4E player.

I think that just about every game brings something to the table. I enjoy reading different systems to think about what elements I can take from them to integrate into my ongoing game to strengthen it.

For example, I'm making power cards to help ease new players into Pathfinder - which is a concept I've taken from 4E.

Another house rule that I am tinkering with is a party unity bonus, similar to what was presented in the newest incarnation of Warhammer Fantasy.

(If my post had been about what are the coolest features of Warhammer Fantasy, I doubt people would have accused me of attempting to fan the flames of the Edition Wars.)

Retreater

 

[Dausuul]

That is just two threads in the War that has spanned hundreds of them. It wasn't Wizards that started them it was fans. So, even if someone gives the blueprint to getting more players in the fold it doesn't do anyone any good because the fans aren't the ones that can change the game.

Lots of WotC people visit these boards. If you go over to the "Lords of Madness" thread, you'll see a bunch of comments from Peter Lee. Mike Mearls shows up now and then, and so do quite a few others. ENWorld is a great place for any game designer to hang out; aggressive moderation keeps the flame wars and trolling to a minimum, and there are a whole bunch of smart people here who like to talk theory and tinker with the system.

I would be shocked if the "What Could WotC Do To Win You Back?" thread didn't have one or two WotC employees keeping an eye on it. They may not be posting, but I'm dead sure they're at least lurking. (And it would not surprise me to learn that some of them are posting incognito, to elicit useful commentary without starting a big hooraw.)

 

[Crothian]

Lots of WotC people visit these boards. If you go over to the "Lords of Madness" thread, you'll see a bunch of comments from Peter Lee. Mike Mearls shows up now and then, and so do quite a few others.

I would be shocked if the "What Could WotC Do To Win You Back?" thread didn't have one or two WotC employees keeping an eye on it. They may not be posting, but I'm dead sure they're at least lurking.

But that's completely different from the fans who we are talking about. The people starting these threads I doubt are hoping Wizards is watching to make changes. They aren't looking for that, they are just asking a question. It seems like some people are seeing reasons and motives for these questions being asked that I'm not seeing.

 

[Dausuul]

But that's completely different from the fans who we are talking about. The people starting these threads I doubt are hoping Wizards is watching to make changes. They aren't looking for that, they are just asking a question. It seems like some people are seeing reasons and motives for these questions being asked that I'm not seeing.

*shrug* I can't speak for anyone else, but when I start or participate in any such discussion, I am usually aware in the back of my head that someone from WotC might be reading it.

And there have been cases where such discussions were openly started by WotC staffers. A few months back we had a thread from one of the lead designers saying (paraphrased), "Okay, so we're hearing that nobody likes our 4E adventures. Any suggestions to improve?" Man, did that get a lot of replies.

 

[Azgulor]

As the original poster of the "what did 4E get RIGHT?" thread, I thought I would chime in on why I started the thread.

First, I didn't intend to create an edition war, which I stated as a disclaimer on my post. I wanted to begin a civil discourse to find out what - in fellow ENWorlders' opinions - were the most appealing aspects of 4E for a non-4E player.

I think that just about every game brings something to the table. I enjoy reading different systems to think about what elements I can take from them to integrate into my ongoing game to strengthen it.

For example, I'm making power cards to help ease new players into Pathfinder - which is a concept I've taken from 4E.

Another house rule that I am tinkering with is a party unity bonus, similar to what was presented in the newest incarnation of Warhammer Fantasy.

(If my post had been about what are the coolest features of Warhammer Fantasy, I doubt people would have accused me of attempting to fan the flames of the Edition Wars.)

Retreater

Thanks for the reply & example. That's the kind of thing I was trying to learn.

Looking to other systems for ideas or subsystems, etc. I can understand and have certainly done myself.

The desire to recruit "lost players" is what I was puzzling over. Recruiting at an Edition Change announcement/release I get. "Come back to game X" or "If game X had A,B, and C would you play it" don't make sense if the same edition is in print.

For what it's worth, I didn't think you were attempting to start an edition war thread. Of course, I didn't think this thread was doing that either but the 1st response I got implied that it was, so...

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'm curious -- why do people care?

I don't think many people genuinely care. At all.

Some will still toy with some of the notions, the arguments, whatever. Bit of cheeky fun, perhaps. Some drama, if people are feeling really bored that day?

Then again, I guess there will always be those who identify strongly with product/branding, too - to these folks, it's like a team sport, and winning is vital. Just as it happens with, well, sport of course. Also, computer/console hardware, etc., etc. You name it. It's a funny old pastime.