4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey paradox matey!

Given WotC's support for Epic in 3.X (which is to say, hardly at all after the material was put into the SRD- even the 3.5 conversions were slipshod and required retooling to actually be useful in the little details), I'd be shocked if they released any rules for handling characters above 30th level within a year of the release of the new Player's Handbook.

Yes it seems likely that with epic in the core, they won't be in a hurry to release a 4th Edition Epic Level Handbook.

This leaves a window of opportunity for somebody with a quality product that meshes well with the core rules. We here believe UK has a quality product for 3.5, or we wouldn't be posting here; if it can be updated to 4E rules within a reasonable timeframe (admittedly, that's doubtful if UK insists on being the sole designer/developer as he has in the past), then why not do it? Why not become the de facto standard for this regime of play?

I like a challenge.

Certainly, the 3.5 version should be released ASAP. But writing off 4th Edition when it's the 800-pound gorilla bearing down on the market is shooting UK in his starving-artist's foot, IMO- a 4E version is surely worth considering.

Its something thats almost certainly going to happen. Just not for a year or so.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

My recent perusing of 4th Edition gossip suggests that its going to be slightly front loaded with perhaps less 'power' per level over the 30 levels. Roughly speaking 30 levels in 4E could be similar in power to 20 levels in 3/3.5...depending upon different classes - assuming they are balanced this time.

I haven't given it much thought beyond the obvious, but the simplest progression after that could be something like:

31-35 Hero-deity
36-40 Quasi
41-45 Demi
46-50 Lesser
51-55 Inter
56-60 Greater

61-70 Elder
71-80 Over
81-90 First

With the 30-level immortal span made up of portfolio 'classes', and the next 30-level sidereal span made up of dimensional 'classes'.

A prehistorically early appraisal of power would suggest a typical quasi-deity is equal to two 30th-level PCs, a typical lesser deity is equal to five 30th-level PCs and a typical greater deity is equal to ten 30th-level PCs.

Early reports infer that Orcus could well be a 30th-level BOSS creature, that is by itself a match for five 30th-level PCs. Which would put Orcus in and around the Lesser Deity range of power which is (in my opinion) roughly where he should be anyway.

It does seem like a change back to 1st Edition Deities & Demigods/Legends & Lore type mortal vs. immortal power, which is probably a good thing.

Of course I have jumped to some conclusions in my above observations.

 

[jedrious]

31-35 Hero-deity
36-40 Quasi
41-45 Demi
46-50 Lesser
51-55 Inter
56-60 Greater

61-70 Elder
71-80 Over
81-90 First

Perhaps a more balanced approach would be basing it off of the rate of Divine Rank growth you spell out in Spiritual Growth with a rank gained every 5 levels as oppossed to a status, in the proposed brainstorming you go from divine rank 2(the culmination of epic at 30th assuming of course you integrate Disciple and Prophet into 1-30) to divine rank 16 in a mere 30 levels when it should take 70

also another thing to consider is making separate "Class" progressions for each type of quintessence denoting the differences in powers and capabilities for where their divinity comes from

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey jedrious!

Perhaps a more balanced approach would be basing it off of the rate of Divine Rank growth you spell out in Spiritual Growth with a rank gained every 5 levels as oppossed to a status, in the proposed brainstorming you go from divine rank 2(the culmination of epic at 30th assuming of course you integrate Disciple and Prophet into 1-30) to divine rank 16 in a mere 30 levels when it should take 70

...I can't see myself creating forty-four 70 level Portfolio Progressions. I just can't.

also another thing to consider is making separate "Class" progressions for each type of quintessence denoting the differences in powers and capabilities for where their divinity comes from

I dunno about that. Interesting idea though. I was thinking there might be something different about the advancement for sidereals though.

XP = Mortals
QP = Immortals
? = Sidereals

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Do you have a rough idea as to how the "supra 30" class levels would work?

Not at the moment, and I am not that worried about it either.

Well Mr. Punctual you need to get worried about it as 4ed is less than a year away.

Just ribbing mate, hope all's well.

 

[jedrious]

Hey jedrious!



...I can't see myself creating forty-four 70 level Portfolio Progressions. I just can't.



I dunno about that. Interesting idea though. I was thinking there might be something different about the advancement for sidereals though.

XP = Mortals
QP = Immortals
? = Sidereals

there's definately an easier way than making separate classes for each portfolios, and if Star Wars Saga edition is a good preview for 4th ed, the mechanics are already in as seen by the Force, Dathomiri and Jensaari talent trees, trees available for anyone of the appropriate background to take regardless of class

 

[paradox42]

...I can't see myself creating forty-four 70 level Portfolio Progressions. I just can't.

Who says you have to? If the talent-trees thing jedrious suggested isn't workable as a solution, then make a few basic ones to show how it's done, give several trusted people the methods you used to create them and balance them, and let them have at it. This is an obvious place to farm out creative/writing work to others. As I and others have exhorted you before, don't take on the whole task of writing yourself when others can help you- the book will be better for it. Retain veto power over the results and make suggestions along the way and you'll see results much faster than you ever would working by yourself!

[responding to a suggestion to make progressions based on the different types of Quintessence]

I dunno about that. Interesting idea though. I was thinking there might be something different about the advancement for sidereals though.

XP = Mortals
QP = Immortals
? = Sidereals

Amusingly enough, to me, that's exactly how I structured my 20-year-old rules for "Old One" advancement that I made after getting the gold-box Immortals set. Mortals had XP, Immortals had PP (which were actually convertible to XP on a 1-PP-to-10,000-XP basis), so logically the beings above Immortals had to have something of their own. I called them "Life Points" back then, but that seems a fairly trite choice to me today. The relevant fact is, they were a third type of power that a being could gain and use, and having any meant you were an Overgod/Old One- what would be called a Sidereal in the Immortals Handbook.

Of course, to become an Old One by the old Immortals rules required that you first reach Hierarch of your Sphere, then give up your power and become mortal again, then reach Immortality a second time, and as an Immortal in your second time around, again reach Hierarch- and then again attempt to give it all up and become mortal once more. Blackballs would then appear and eat you, and you would be taken across the Dimensional Vortex to where the Old Ones wait for worthy candidates to ascend to their level. Rather more complicated and lengthy than is fun, or workable in the modern game.

But one thing to keep in mind if you go this route of using a third power type, is that if you do you'll need to come up with ways to acquire it and use it- and although logically it should be structured fairly closely to the existing systems for XP and QP, this may be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[jedrious]

XP = Mortals
QP = Immortals
? = Sidereals

been thinking on this

Experience Points = Mortals
Essence Points = Immortals
Quintessence Points = Sidereals
Dimense Points = Eternals

 

[Upper_Krust]

there's definately an easier way than making separate classes for each portfolios, and if Star Wars Saga edition is a good preview for 4th ed, the mechanics are already in as seen by the Force, Dathomiri and Jensaari talent trees, trees available for anyone of the appropriate background to take regardless of class

Unfortunately that doesn't help me as I am unfamiliar with SWSE.

Can you explain a bit more how these talent trees are integrated? Are they like feat trees?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello!

Who says you have to? If the talent-trees thing jedrious suggested isn't workable as a solution, then make a few basic ones to show how it's done, give several trusted people the methods you used to create them and balance them, and let them have at it. This is an obvious place to farm out creative/writing work to others. As I and others have exhorted you before, don't take on the whole task of writing yourself when others can help you- the book will be better for it. Retain veto power over the results and make suggestions along the way and you'll see results much faster than you ever would working by yourself!

Obviously we are only talking about things at this stage, nothing will be worked on until I can peruse 4th Edition. So I'll be sure and keep my options open.

Amusingly enough, to me, that's exactly how I structured my 20-year-old rules for "Old One" advancement that I made after getting the gold-box Immortals set. Mortals had XP, Immortals had PP (which were actually convertible to XP on a 1-PP-to-10,000-XP basis), so logically the beings above Immortals had to have something of their own. I called them "Life Points" back then, but that seems a fairly trite choice to me today. The relevant fact is, they were a third type of power that a being could gain and use, and having any meant you were an Overgod/Old One- what would be called a Sidereal in the Immortals Handbook.

Did these Life Points have a 10,000:1 ratio versus Power Points?

Of course, to become an Old One by the old Immortals rules required that you first reach Hierarch of your Sphere, then give up your power and become mortal again, then reach Immortality a second time, and as an Immortal in your second time around, again reach Hierarch- and then again attempt to give it all up and become mortal once more. Blackballs would then appear and eat you, and you would be taken across the Dimensional Vortex to where the Old Ones wait for worthy candidates to ascend to their level. Rather more complicated and lengthy than is fun, or workable in the modern game.

Yes, it was an interesting method, if not that practical in play.

But one thing to keep in mind if you go this route of using a third power type, is that if you do you'll need to come up with ways to acquire it and use it- and although logically it should be structured fairly closely to the existing systems for XP and QP, this may be more trouble than it's worth.

At this stage all I can think of is that this tertiary power source would be something to do with bonding with the demiplanes/planes/layers/dimensions. Or at least that might be one part of it (just like worship points is one part of quintessence).