4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
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Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy Fieari mate! 
I read that late last night. Personally I think it sounds great. The crazier the better. Of course I'll just have to up the ante for the eventual 4E Immortal's Handbook rules.
So far the only thing about 4E that is worrying me (as a designer) is the amount of monsters needed. Luckily the monsters will be far easier to design, so at the very least that should cancel out the problem.
So its the logistics of the 10 encounters to level up, with potentially multiple monsters per encounter. So if you want to get from Level 31 to Level 33 thats 30 encounters. If we want an Undead themed campaign (over those levels) then how many Demigod Tiered Undead do I need to create to keep things interesting?
We could possibly break that down to say 1/3 will be existing monsters (from the Monster Manual) - possibly changed in some way (such as adding Templates or creating minion versions of existing monsters), 1/3 could be NPCs, but that still leaves you with 1/3 to be new monsters or at least monsters specifically designed for those levels.
So that means (as a designer) you may need 3-4 monsters per level. Between Levels 31-60 thats 100 monsters...and thats for each theme (Angels, Dragons, Undead, Umbrals, Devils etc.)
If I am carrying the weight of Immortal Campaigns on my shoulders then its up to me to design these monsters.
However, 100+ monsters of each type is (given my track record) way beyond me (in terms of time needed, although I still think I could design that many). However, there are a number of ways around that.
1) Multiple power levels for the same monster (Dragons are the obvious example here)
2) Multiple variants of the same monster (my treatment of Golems showcases this well)
3) Multiple power roles for the same monster (such as an Elite 31st-level monster then a 36th-level standard version and a 46th-level Minion version)
4) New Templates
I've sort of been toying with the Pseudonatural Bestiary Monster List just to see what pieces fit where and how many monsters would cover what I wanted to do (Levels 21-60 being the focus with 61-100 touched upon).
Fieari said:
I read that late last night. Personally I think it sounds great. The crazier the better. Of course I'll just have to up the ante for the eventual 4E Immortal's Handbook rules.
So far the only thing about 4E that is worrying me (as a designer) is the amount of monsters needed. Luckily the monsters will be far easier to design, so at the very least that should cancel out the problem.
So its the logistics of the 10 encounters to level up, with potentially multiple monsters per encounter. So if you want to get from Level 31 to Level 33 thats 30 encounters. If we want an Undead themed campaign (over those levels) then how many Demigod Tiered Undead do I need to create to keep things interesting?
We could possibly break that down to say 1/3 will be existing monsters (from the Monster Manual) - possibly changed in some way (such as adding Templates or creating minion versions of existing monsters), 1/3 could be NPCs, but that still leaves you with 1/3 to be new monsters or at least monsters specifically designed for those levels.
So that means (as a designer) you may need 3-4 monsters per level. Between Levels 31-60 thats 100 monsters...and thats for each theme (Angels, Dragons, Undead, Umbrals, Devils etc.)
If I am carrying the weight of Immortal Campaigns on my shoulders then its up to me to design these monsters.
However, 100+ monsters of each type is (given my track record) way beyond me (in terms of time needed, although I still think I could design that many). However, there are a number of ways around that.
1) Multiple power levels for the same monster (Dragons are the obvious example here)
2) Multiple variants of the same monster (my treatment of Golems showcases this well)
3) Multiple power roles for the same monster (such as an Elite 31st-level monster then a 36th-level standard version and a 46th-level Minion version)
4) New Templates
I've sort of been toying with the Pseudonatural Bestiary Monster List just to see what pieces fit where and how many monsters would cover what I wanted to do (Levels 21-60 being the focus with 61-100 touched upon).
Ltheb Silverfrond
Explorer
100 monsters is a lot; especially if you don't reuse any. Even reusing fodder monsters, Like Ghouls, (or for a slightly more high level game, demiliches) You would still need 4 monsters of each tier at least. But I don't think we will know until we see the books. It might be that monsters are scalable, like adding HD, so that you may only need 4 monsters of a 'type' in every tier. (By Tiers I mean by level ranges: Epic, Divine, Cosmic, Uber-cosmic, and Nexus Dragon Fodder)
But if not, you sure got your work cut out for you.
As a side question, U_K: With the changes we have seen to the Core 4E Cosmos, do you foresee any conflicts with the Immortals' Expanded Cosmology?
) You would still need 4 monsters of each tier at least. But I don't think we will know until we see the books. It might be that monsters are scalable, like adding HD, so that you may only need 4 monsters of a 'type' in every tier. (By Tiers I mean by level ranges: Epic, Divine, Cosmic, Uber-cosmic, and Nexus Dragon Fodder) But if not, you sure got your work cut out for you.
As a side question, U_K: With the changes we have seen to the Core 4E Cosmos, do you foresee any conflicts with the Immortals' Expanded Cosmology?
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Ltheb mate!
Well exactly. I mean even the Monster Manual won't be able to cover themed Campaigns over 30 levels without some tweaking.
I was thinking about 4-7 with variants.
Monster design is my speciality, getting the books finished quickly is my handicap.
If anything the new 4E cosmology seems closer to my kosmology than 3E. My dimensions easily parallel their new planes as follows:
Entropy = Shadowfell
Prime = World
Astral = Astral
Elemental = Elemental Chaos
Outer Planes = FeyWild
Far Place = Far Realm
The big change as I see it is the dimension of time, but I have just reasoned that its no longer a 'where' but rather a 'time'. So time overlaps the others. Shadowfell is obviously the border of Entropy since entropy itself is nothingness. The new Astral is a combination of the old Astral + Outer Planes, which indirectly means the FeyWild is something new (even if it partly parallels the old Outer Planes).
I'm thinking about a series of Adventures (Levels 31-33, 34-36, 38-40, 41-43, 44-46, 47-50, 51-53, 54-56 and 57-60) which would parallel the WotC 1-30 adventures. But I'll probably need one (or more) people to help me with those because otherwise (as we have found out) its going to take me forever and a day. Each adventure would have a strong theme with one of the planes central in that. So far I have ideas for seven of the nine, although one strongly draws upon a certain WotC IP so I may not be able to use that one (I'm reticent to change it because its such a strong idea, I may send it to WotC if I ever get the time).
As a rule of thumb I'd split profits with those concerned (50% writing, 50% art/maps), so if I do half the writing and person 2 does the other half plus the art they would get 75% and I would get 25%...or something like that).
Ltheb Silverfrond said:100 monsters is a lot; especially if you don't reuse any. Even reusing fodder monsters, Like Ghouls, (or for a slightly more high level game, demiliches
Well exactly. I mean even the Monster Manual won't be able to cover themed Campaigns over 30 levels without some tweaking.
I was thinking about 4-7 with variants.
Monster design is my speciality, getting the books finished quickly is my handicap.
If anything the new 4E cosmology seems closer to my kosmology than 3E. My dimensions easily parallel their new planes as follows:
Entropy = Shadowfell
Prime = World
Astral = Astral
Elemental = Elemental Chaos
Outer Planes = FeyWild
Far Place = Far Realm
The big change as I see it is the dimension of time, but I have just reasoned that its no longer a 'where' but rather a 'time'. So time overlaps the others. Shadowfell is obviously the border of Entropy since entropy itself is nothingness. The new Astral is a combination of the old Astral + Outer Planes, which indirectly means the FeyWild is something new (even if it partly parallels the old Outer Planes).
I'm thinking about a series of Adventures (Levels 31-33, 34-36, 38-40, 41-43, 44-46, 47-50, 51-53, 54-56 and 57-60) which would parallel the WotC 1-30 adventures. But I'll probably need one (or more) people to help me with those because otherwise (as we have found out) its going to take me forever and a day. Each adventure would have a strong theme with one of the planes central in that. So far I have ideas for seven of the nine, although one strongly draws upon a certain WotC IP so I may not be able to use that one (I'm reticent to change it because its such a strong idea, I may send it to WotC if I ever get the time).
As a rule of thumb I'd split profits with those concerned (50% writing, 50% art/maps), so if I do half the writing and person 2 does the other half plus the art they would get 75% and I would get 25%...or something like that).
Ltheb Silverfrond
Explorer
Well, I'd say writing adventures is probably the hardest part;
I know some DMs (like myself) who just glance over an adventure, and only run the bare bones of it. (When I ran H6 in 3E, It was more or less H6, but I just converted what I wanted to use and scrapped the rest, like most of the ridiculous puzzle-mazes and the mook undead encounters; Also, it was more of 'The Return of H6', as H6 had already been completed in the current timeline, so the plot was a bit different)
While I also know DMs who would run the adventure as-is to the letter. (I have seen Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil run like this more times than I care to imagine)
I imagine most DMs work someplace in the middle; Keep the meat and bones, perhaps bend the fluff a bit to suit their game, but mostly keep it the same. (They wouldn't run that adventure if it's not what they wanted to run, after all)
However, I don't yet know how 4E Adventures are structured. 4E might have a drastically simpler model for adventure design. I certainly hope encounters are as dynamic as they say they will be without all the work. In 3E its much easier just to have one big monster/high level npc vs the PCs.
As for designing adventures; I don't think I have the scope to write an epic adventure, but maps and mathwork I can do. I'll brush up (pun intended) on my photoshop-fu and see if I can throw together some professional-looking maps. (Although I think it will be WotC who set the bar as far as adventure quality; I don't think I can top their pre-rendered digital map tiles, but I'll see what I can do) I can't promise anything right now, but since most of this discussion is hypothetical anyway...
I know some DMs (like myself) who just glance over an adventure, and only run the bare bones of it. (When I ran H6 in 3E, It was more or less H6, but I just converted what I wanted to use and scrapped the rest, like most of the ridiculous puzzle-mazes and the mook undead encounters; Also, it was more of 'The Return of H6', as H6 had already been completed in the current timeline, so the plot was a bit different)
While I also know DMs who would run the adventure as-is to the letter. (I have seen Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil run like this more times than I care to imagine)
I imagine most DMs work someplace in the middle; Keep the meat and bones, perhaps bend the fluff a bit to suit their game, but mostly keep it the same. (They wouldn't run that adventure if it's not what they wanted to run, after all)
However, I don't yet know how 4E Adventures are structured. 4E might have a drastically simpler model for adventure design. I certainly hope encounters are as dynamic as they say they will be without all the work. In 3E its much easier just to have one big monster/high level npc vs the PCs.
As for designing adventures; I don't think I have the scope to write an epic adventure, but maps and mathwork I can do. I'll brush up (pun intended) on my photoshop-fu and see if I can throw together some professional-looking maps. (Although I think it will be WotC who set the bar as far as adventure quality; I don't think I can top their pre-rendered digital map tiles, but I'll see what I can do) I can't promise anything right now, but since most of this discussion is hypothetical anyway...
Upper_Krust
Legend
Okay, the D&D XP for monsters could be something like:
1st: 100 XP
2nd: 125
3rd: 150
4th: 175
5th: 200
6th: 250
7th: 300
8th: 350
9th: 400
10th: 500
11th: 600
12th: 700
13th: 800
14th: 1000
15th: 1200
16th: 1400
17th: 1600
18th: 2000
19th: 2400
20th: 2800
21st: 3200
22nd: 4000
23rd: 4800
24th: 5600
25th: 6400
26th: 8000
27th: 9600
28th: 11,200
29th: 12,800
30th: 16,000
Minion 30th: 4000
Elite 30th: 32,000
Solo 30th: 80,000
Of course this doesn't explain why the Pit Fiend is 18,000 XP rather than 16,000, but it could be that monsters can use everything from their level, up to, but not including the next. So the 26th-level range is 8000-9599 XP.
A few musings. If 4 minions = 1 standard monster, 2 standard = 1 elite and 5 standard = 1 solo, then the following seems logical.
Standard = Minion +8
Elite = Minion +12, or Standard +4
Solo = Minion +17, Elite +5 or Standard +9
Ergo (while the math itself may need to be rejigged?) a 26th-level Elite Pit Fiend would be a potential:
21st Level Solo Monster
30th-level Standard Monster
(Hypothetical*) 38th-level Minion Monster
*
1st: 100 XP
2nd: 125
3rd: 150
4th: 175
5th: 200
6th: 250
7th: 300
8th: 350
9th: 400
10th: 500
11th: 600
12th: 700
13th: 800
14th: 1000
15th: 1200
16th: 1400
17th: 1600
18th: 2000
19th: 2400
20th: 2800
21st: 3200
22nd: 4000
23rd: 4800
24th: 5600
25th: 6400
26th: 8000
27th: 9600
28th: 11,200
29th: 12,800
30th: 16,000
Minion 30th: 4000
Elite 30th: 32,000
Solo 30th: 80,000
Of course this doesn't explain why the Pit Fiend is 18,000 XP rather than 16,000, but it could be that monsters can use everything from their level, up to, but not including the next. So the 26th-level range is 8000-9599 XP.
A few musings. If 4 minions = 1 standard monster, 2 standard = 1 elite and 5 standard = 1 solo, then the following seems logical.
Standard = Minion +8
Elite = Minion +12, or Standard +4
Solo = Minion +17, Elite +5 or Standard +9
Ergo (while the math itself may need to be rejigged?) a 26th-level Elite Pit Fiend would be a potential:
21st Level Solo Monster
30th-level Standard Monster
(Hypothetical*) 38th-level Minion Monster
*
Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy Ltheb dude!
I like 'designing adventures although my mind starts to wander if I am forced to do the fluffier bits.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see, though I don't expect adventures to be too different from what has gone before.
Well I think the trick is to continually break it down*, start with the adventure as a whole, break it into (3) ACTS and then break those ACTS down into ENCOUNTERS (Each SCENE as it were).
*STOP HAMMER TIME!
I can't out-draw Wayne Reynolds* so don't worry about being able to out photoshop people who do that for a living.
*Unless we're both wearing six-guns.
Ltheb Silverfrond said:
I like 'designing adventures although my mind starts to wander if I am forced to do the fluffier bits.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see, though I don't expect adventures to be too different from what has gone before.
Well I think the trick is to continually break it down*, start with the adventure as a whole, break it into (3) ACTS and then break those ACTS down into ENCOUNTERS (Each SCENE as it were).
*STOP HAMMER TIME!
I can't out-draw Wayne Reynolds* so don't worry about being able to out photoshop people who do that for a living.
*Unless we're both wearing six-guns.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hey all!
I was able to work out the formula for monster hit points earlier. I think it works in pretty much every case.
[Monster Level +1] x [Power Level Modifier for Role], + Con Score
Power Level Modifiers for Roles:
Brute: 10 hp/level
Soldier: 8 hp/level
Skirmisher: 8 hp/Level
Artillery: 6 hp/level
Controller: 6 hp/level
Lurker: 6 hp/level
Kobold Skirmisher: Level 1 Skirmisher (27 hp)
2 x 8, + 11 = 27
Bodak Skulk: Level 16 Lurker (124 hp)
17 x 6, +22 = 124
Boneclaw: Level 14 Soldier (Hp 136)
15 x 8, + 16 = 136
For Elite Monsters use the following formula:
[Monster Level +1] x [Power Level Modifier for Role x 1.5], + Con Score
Pit Fiend: Level 26 Elite Soldier (HP 350)
27 x 12, +27 = 351 (I think they just rounded this down)
I don't know the formula for Solo Monsters (I haven't seen any solo examples yet) but I guesstimate it could be...
[Monster Level +1] x [Power Level Modifier for Role x3 or more], + Con Score
I also need to see some more examples of Minions to contrast things, but I imagine it would be a variation on this theme. The Vampire Spawn has 1/9th the hit points the above formula gives it.
I was able to work out the formula for monster hit points earlier. I think it works in pretty much every case.
[Monster Level +1] x [Power Level Modifier for Role], + Con Score
Power Level Modifiers for Roles:
Brute: 10 hp/level
Soldier: 8 hp/level
Skirmisher: 8 hp/Level
Artillery: 6 hp/level
Controller: 6 hp/level
Lurker: 6 hp/level
Kobold Skirmisher: Level 1 Skirmisher (27 hp)
2 x 8, + 11 = 27
Bodak Skulk: Level 16 Lurker (124 hp)
17 x 6, +22 = 124
Boneclaw: Level 14 Soldier (Hp 136)
15 x 8, + 16 = 136
For Elite Monsters use the following formula:
[Monster Level +1] x [Power Level Modifier for Role x 1.5], + Con Score
Pit Fiend: Level 26 Elite Soldier (HP 350)
27 x 12, +27 = 351 (I think they just rounded this down)
I don't know the formula for Solo Monsters (I haven't seen any solo examples yet) but I guesstimate it could be...
[Monster Level +1] x [Power Level Modifier for Role x3 or more], + Con Score
I also need to see some more examples of Minions to contrast things, but I imagine it would be a variation on this theme. The Vampire Spawn has 1/9th the hit points the above formula gives it.
Part 3 of the aforesaid review:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811
The review suggests that certain aspects of deities will make it in the core rulebooks, although some classics are going to be left out.
Additionally, statting your own monsters has become much easier apparently. I felt like this was already a fair inference but it's nice to see it confirmed.
This is good news for you U_K.
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811
The review suggests that certain aspects of deities will make it in the core rulebooks, although some classics are going to be left out.
Additionally, statting your own monsters has become much easier apparently. I felt like this was already a fair inference but it's nice to see it confirmed.
This is good news for you U_K.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi historian mate!
Thanks.
I wonder is Orcus in the book, or the Aspect of Orcus? Very interesting. Also we may get to see the Aspect of Asmodeus...which would be very cool.
Indeed.
I have printed out some of the monster stats just to get a handle on things.
I suspect my future 4E work will encompass 21st Epic Tier and upwards.
I have been thinking certain monsters would fall into the Epic Tier, like some Abominations.
21-30 Lesser Abominations (Anakim, Phane etc.)
31-40 Greater Abominations (Amilictli, Xixecal etc.)
41-50 Lesser Entities (Gargouille, Zamzumim etc.)
51-60 Greater Entities (Hekatonkeres, Cogent etc.)
61-70 Lesser Primordials (Trithemian, Koilon etc.)
71-80 Greater Primordials (Alklha, Magog etc.)
81-90 Lesser Anomalies (Kalagni, Trigunas etc.)
91-100 Greater Anomalies (Infinitaur, Lipika etc.)
Assuming Dragons cover a standard 20 level range from the youngest then Epic Dragons starting at 21st and going up to 40th, and Adamic Dragons 41-60, Nehaschimic Dragons 61-80 and those other types beginning with 'Muhlatimic' (the spelling of which I never get right?) will be 81-100.
Same thing with Golems (albeit covering a 30 level spread).
Guardians: -5 levels
Golems: typical
Sentinels: +5 levels
Gargants: +10 Levels
Colossi: +15 levels
Leviathans: +20 levels
historian said:
Thanks.
historian said:
I wonder is Orcus in the book, or the Aspect of Orcus? Very interesting. Also we may get to see the Aspect of Asmodeus...which would be very cool.
historian said:Additionally, statting your own monsters has become much easier apparently. I felt like this was already a fair inference but it's nice to see it confirmed.
This is good news for you U_K.
Indeed.
I have printed out some of the monster stats just to get a handle on things.
I suspect my future 4E work will encompass 21st Epic Tier and upwards.
I have been thinking certain monsters would fall into the Epic Tier, like some Abominations.
21-30 Lesser Abominations (Anakim, Phane etc.)
31-40 Greater Abominations (Amilictli, Xixecal etc.)
41-50 Lesser Entities (Gargouille, Zamzumim etc.)
51-60 Greater Entities (Hekatonkeres, Cogent etc.)
61-70 Lesser Primordials (Trithemian, Koilon etc.)
71-80 Greater Primordials (Alklha, Magog etc.)
81-90 Lesser Anomalies (Kalagni, Trigunas etc.)
91-100 Greater Anomalies (Infinitaur, Lipika etc.)
Assuming Dragons cover a standard 20 level range from the youngest then Epic Dragons starting at 21st and going up to 40th, and Adamic Dragons 41-60, Nehaschimic Dragons 61-80 and those other types beginning with 'Muhlatimic' (the spelling of which I never get right?) will be 81-100.
Same thing with Golems (albeit covering a 30 level spread).
Guardians: -5 levels
Golems: typical
Sentinels: +5 levels
Gargants: +10 Levels
Colossi: +15 levels
Leviathans: +20 levels
