4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Trying to compose a list of 4E things I'll probably have to fix in terms of mechanics or fluff...and dante I don't need any snarky "everything in 4E needs fixed" type comment. All other suggestions welcome.

Mechanics

Size Rules: Okay, I can understand why things were capped at Gargantuan this time around (the miniatures). But a couple of things are bugging me.

Firstly, the sizes seem to approximate the following:

Tiny 1-2 ft.
Small 2-4
Medium 4-8
Large 8-16
Huge 16-24
Gargantuan 24-32 or potentially bigger.

Yet for all that the Gargantuan models seem to follow the 32-64 scale, its just that their bases don't.

Outside Space and Reach obviously size doesn't have any other bearing on the game now, so its less important, but it still would have been nice to see it make more sense.

Carrying Capacity: Almost certainly needs a modifier for size.

Fluff

Slaad: They just seem to have made a mess of what went before and unfortunately not replaced it with something better. Are Black Slaad the new Death Slaad?

 

[Center-of-All]

Yeah, the sizes are a bit off, but as you said, it's not really important this time around. I agree about the carrying capacity thing.

As for the slaad, I don't know. Previously they didn't have much going for them, with the spawning stone being the only remotely interesting aspect of their backstory. I kind of like the 'scions of entropy' angle they have now, even iff it's a little cliche. I think that could be expanded to something along the lines of them being 'antibodies' that the Elemental Chaos is spawning in reaction to the abyssal infection within it, setting up a sort of slaad/demon war that I think could open up some possibilities.

And I don't think the Black Slaad are the new Death Slaad. I could actually see 'Death Slaad' being a template you add to a base slaad, though I'd have to think of a concept behind it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Yeah, the sizes are a bit off, but as you said, it's not really important this time around.

Well its not really important until I try to create rules for really big monsters.

Ideally I would have liked everything to just double and that may end up being the method I use.

I agree about the carrying capacity thing.

Again, not much of a problem, I think they are just suggesting 'ignore it as long as PCs don't abuse it'

As for the slaad, I don't know. Previously they didn't have much going for them, with the spawning stone being the only remotely interesting aspect of their backstory. I kind of like the 'scions of entropy' angle they have now, even iff it's a little cliche. I think that could be expanded to something along the lines of them being 'antibodies' that the Elemental Chaos is spawning in reaction to the abyssal infection within it, setting up a sort of slaad/demon war that I think could open up some possibilities.

Personally I see them as Far Realms footsoldiers. Sort of half-pseudonatural demons. With the daemons as half-undead demons.

And I don't think the Black Slaad are the new Death Slaad. I could actually see 'Death Slaad' being a template you add to a base slaad, though I'd have to think of a concept behind it.

I like the new Slaad monsters I just don't like the inferred hierarchy - or lack of one, even when appropos for such chaotic creatures.

One other thing I have noticed is that there are no real Epic Fey in the Monster Manual, and the Fomorians don't seem as powerful as I'd hoped. There must be something beyond the Fomorians ruling the Feywild I think.

 

[Center-of-All]

Hiya, Krusty!

Well, that's what I've used before for carrying capacity, so no complaints on this end.

The problem with connecting slaad with the far realm is that they've already been established as elemental creatures. That's not set in stone, obviously, but on the whole I think it would be preferable to keep in line with the core cosmology of the base setting as much as possible, in order to maximize integratability. The slaads also only fit with the Far Realms theme of madness indirectly, via their old connection with chaos. They don't really give off the same aberrant milleu that the established Far Realms creatures do. Plus, from my reading of the MM, I'd seen the Foulspawn as being the footsoldiers of the Far Realms, with the swordwings as their epic level equivalents. As for the daemons being half-undead demons...err, I can't really see where you're coming from with this. What's your angle?

I don't see new slaad, though. I see four slaad from the 3E MM, renamed, and the Black Slaad from the Epic level Handbook. They even reused the art. The hierarchy thing I just think is appropriate, and never felt right in previous editions. You're right about the Feywild, though. We need some decent epic level fey creatures, probably around Death Giant/Death Titan power level. I'd say daoine sidhe in the traditional Seelie/Unseelie split, but I know you can come up with something better than that.

I do feel, however, that some of this may get more extrapolation in the Manual of the Planes. I hope you'll excuse me if I state that at your rates, you're unlikely to release the Immortals Handbook prior to that publication, it may be wise to concentrate on the mechanics of your system until we can digest that material and get a better grasp of what we can do with it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya, Krusty!

Howdy Center-of-All amigo!

Well, that's what I've used before for carrying capacity, so no complaints on this end.

The problem with connecting slaad with the far realm is that they've already been established as elemental creatures.

Not so much Far Realm creatures as Far Realm tainted shall we say.

For instance I am planning to slightly tweak angels (conceptually) to bring them in line with this new edition, wherein Malakim will become Archangels of Death partially linked to Entropy/Shadowfell.

That's not set in stone, obviously, but on the whole I think it would be preferable to keep in line with the core cosmology of the base setting as much as possible, in order to maximize integratability. The slaads also only fit with the Far Realms theme of madness indirectly, via their old connection with chaos. They don't really give off the same aberrant milleu that the established Far Realms creatures do. Plus, from my reading of the MM, I'd seen the Foulspawn as being the footsoldiers of the Far Realms, with the swordwings as their epic level equivalents.

I'll mull things over.

As for the daemons being half-undead demons...err, I can't really see where you're coming from with this. What's your angle?

The Daemon Masters are disease ridden beings, any sort of malady/sickness/wasting disease would naturally come from the Shadowfell.

I don't see new slaad, though. I see four slaad from the 3E MM, renamed, and the Black Slaad from the Epic level Handbook. They even reused the art. The hierarchy thing I just think is appropriate, and never felt right in previous editions.

When I say new slaad I mean the 4th Edition versions, not wholly new Slaad races.

You're right about the Feywild, though. We need some decent epic level fey creatures, probably around Death Giant/Death Titan power level. I'd say daoine sidhe in the traditional Seelie/Unseelie split, but I know you can come up with something better than that.

I already have a number of superior fey but they generally seem more like loners than a race or group that could exist over the Fomorians. I'll think of something though.

I do feel, however, that some of this may get more extrapolation in the Manual of the Planes. I hope you'll excuse me if I state that at your rates, you're unlikely to release the Immortals Handbook prior to that publication, it may be wise to concentrate on the mechanics of your system until we can digest that material and get a better grasp of what we can do with it.

Well I think I'd like to get something 4E ready by the end of this year. Though I don't think it would be Gods & Monsters (that'll be the second book) where this sort of stuff is generally expounded upon.

 

[Center-of-All]

Bonjour, mon ami (sorry, my french is a bit rusty. )

Well, I agree with/like the ideas in most of your post, so I'll just focus on the daemon thing, which I'm still not sure about. I can certainly see the disease/wasting thing being connected to the Shadowfell (though I'll admit I could just as easily see it spawing straight from the Abyss itself), I don't neessarily see that leading to the idea of undeath. Yes, a numbero of shadow creatures are undead (notably nightwalkers, wraiths, devourers, specters, ghosts, and bodaks), but there are also a number of shadow or shadow-connected creatures that aren't (notably dark ones, death giants/titans, Nightmares, Shadar-kai, sorrowsworn, and Umber Hulks). Not to mention we already have 'full' undead demons (Immolith), so there's overlap there. If the daemons are half-undead demons, then I do think we should explain what (if any) connection they have to shadow demons (which I'd bet you anything will be shadow, not elemental in origin) and Orcus (for obvious reasons).

 

[Upper_Krust]

First things first, if anyone has checked out the latest official 4E Monster Manual errata you'll notice that one of the revisions is...

Hill Giant: replace the greatclub damage "1d10+5" with "2d10+7".

Told ya!

Also, in every case where damage needs to be changed (7 instances), it was always because the previous damage was too small.

Bonjour, mon ami (sorry, my french is a bit rusty. )

Howdy Center-of-All! dude!

Well, I agree with/like the ideas in most of your post, so I'll just focus on the daemon thing, which I'm still not sure about. I can certainly see the disease/wasting thing being connected to the Shadowfell (though I'll admit I could just as easily see it spawing straight from the Abyss itself), I don't neessarily see that leading to the idea of undeath. Yes, a numbero of shadow creatures are undead (notably nightwalkers, wraiths, devourers, specters, ghosts, and bodaks), but there are also a number of shadow or shadow-connected creatures that aren't (notably dark ones, death giants/titans, Nightmares, Shadar-kai, sorrowsworn, and Umber Hulks). Not to mention we already have 'full' undead demons (Immolith), so there's overlap there. If the daemons are half-undead demons, then I do think we should explain what (if any) connection they have to shadow demons (which I'd bet you anything will be shadow, not elemental in origin) and Orcus (for obvious reasons).

They don't have to be half-undead as per the Immolith, but I was simply implying the wasting disease would link them to the shadowfell. The more powerful the daemon, the stronger the link to the Shadowfell and thus the closer to death they appear/are.

Shadowfell: Daemons
Feywild: Fey (?)
Astral Plane: Angels
Astral Plane (Hells): Devils
Elemental Chaos: Archons
Elemental Chaos (Abyss): Demons
Far Realm: Slaad

 

[Center-of-All]

Well, aside from still having my doubts as to the Far Realm-Slaad connection (I just think the MM has a better candidate in the Farspawn), the rest of your ideas seem more-or-less solid.

I would like to shift gears a bit though and ask if you've thought about your deific groupings in 4E. If I recall, you suggested one Greater Deity as pantheon head, with an Intermediate, Lesser, and Demi deity of each alignment. Considering the alignment overhaul and change in deific strata, how would you translate this to 4E?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Well, aside from still having my doubts as to the Far Realm-Slaad connection (I just think the MM has a better candidate in the Farspawn), the rest of your ideas seem more-or-less solid.

Farspawn could be like really weak Slaad.

I would like to shift gears a bit though and ask if you've thought about your deific groupings in 4E. If I recall, you suggested one Greater Deity as pantheon head, with an Intermediate, Lesser, and Demi deity of each alignment. Considering the alignment overhaul and change in deific strata, how would you translate this to 4E?

Well, 4E has complicated things a tad in that area.

Firstly, there are no Intermediate Gods. That poses the question, do we push former Intermediate Gods up to Greater God or down to Lesser God or both. I am favouring down to Lesser God. With Lesser God just being called 'God'. Personally I prefer to have Greater Deities remain the providence of Pantheon Heads and similarly powerful beings.

Thor, to me, is not a Greater God.

However, that means you end up squashing the bulk of a Pantheon with a 5-level space. So, some of the weaker Lesser Gods may drop down to demigod.

Previously, I had 1 Greater, 9 Intermediate, 9 Lesser and 9 Demigods to a Pantheon, as well as an undisclosed number of quasi-deities or hero-deities.

However, I am thinking that Pantheons themselves may have a level, and that level will determine how much XP they have to spend vis-a-vis the number of immortals they can sustain.

A typical pantheon may have approx. 20 immortals and an undisclosed number of exalted (quasi to demi-deity) characters.

So that may even look like 1 Greater God and 19 Gods.

The core D&D 4E Pantheon would be a higher level Pantheon (encompassing an entire world) and thus may be able to sustain 10 Greater Gods and 10 Lesser Gods (pulling figures out of thin air here).

 

[Center-of-All]

Hmmm, seems fine to me. I do think you're clinging a little too hard to your 'unofficial' split of the Immortal tier into God/Greater God sets. Even if you demote some of the weaker ones to demigod, there's still a vast crunch in a tiny 5 level space with a comparatively massive gap in the next 5 level space. I think that in the end the conceptually smaller design space of 'Pantheon Head' should logically lead to a conceptually smaller margin for Greater Gods. They're level 39 or 40, not level 36, 37, 38, 39, or 40. We don't need that much space for them. So Thor isn't a greater god. Fair enough. He's still a powerful God, a level 38 Immortal of Strength and Thunder. Odin is still his superior, a level 40 Immortal of War, Sky, and Magic, and we're not pidgeonholing the vast majority of a pantheon into an unreasonably small space. None of the established tiers are subdivided in this way, and I think neither the Exalted nor Immortal ones need be either.