U_K, now, I may just not comprehend your goals for 4e IH, but under your new system (under which I do recall Time Lords won't be available as PCs) isn't the small level gap conducive to Time Lords being dethroned by cabals of First Ones on a regular basis? Or are levels in 4e Immortal play so much more significant than in 3e that a 10 or 20 level distance in the equivalent of a 400-600 HD and 100+ Divine Rank difference?
4th Edition and the Immortals Handbook
- Thread starter Upper_Krust
- Start date
So does this mean that QP is just XP with lower numbers?
Do you mean tha a 30th level character (who leveled up simply by killing monsters and doing quests for example) would have 1,000 QP? Or that they have equivelent of 1,000 QP?
Why exactly does it make the most sense? Bearing in mind these rules are really only going to be used for PCs?
But most immortals won't be going out killing things. Just like most mortals aren't. That's what makes the PC's special. Following this idea is what bogged down parts of third edition. Remember the planet sized iron golems from the Bestiary thread? It would have taken them years to kill a copy of themselves. It feels right but is unplayable.
Considering at that speed it's pretty much unplayable then yes, I would houserule against it.
Why should XP and QP be linked? Why not just let QP use its own numbers determined to allow the game to flow smoothly.
If 1 QP = 1 worshipper then why not simply base the level boundries upon that and then make monsters give out QP based upon whatever allows the PCs top progress in levels at the same rate? Since the system isn't going to be used by anybody else it seems pointless to create a system designed to accurately model the growth of NPC gods and pantheons.
beej
Explorer
Upper_Krust said:
Curses on me for not believing you immediately! I tried to find an equation to determine the amount of XP needed to gain level n, hoping at first that it could be expressed as a quadratic in n. Then I noticed that the pattern "jumps" every now and then, so now the obsessive compulsive mathematician in me is poring through his old analysis textbooks to try to find a good representation for this sequence. And knowing me, I will not rest until I do. <!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o
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<!--[endif]-->If my guesstimate is right, though, under normal rules you should get to level 40 at 6795500XP. Under our 1000:1 XP to worshipper ratio, that's 67955 followers at demigod 40. Far from the 1000000 worshippers that is the Krustean ideal.
Axolotl said:
I am tentatively supporting this notion. Besides, the GSL doesn't allow us to redefine the monster XP gain anyway, let them keep their xp count. Giving them a separate QP count, still based off level but not with XP, is ideal.
When a PC reaches 30th level, s/he is at the peak of her/his mortal capabilities, and the only way to proceed to 31st would be through QP, which is then tracked distinct from XP (capped at 1000000). Those who took the demigod ED probably have some starting QP at 30th, while the rest (unless they did something rp-wise) would start with nil.
<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shape id="_x0000_i1026" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:12pt;height:12pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/KUYABE~1/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image003.png" o:href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->
<!--[endif]-->Will follow-up. (plugs in apologies if I'm not making sense because I'm typing this even while sleepy)
Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy Belzamus! 
Time Lords may be detailed at some juncture, just not in the first book as PCs.
No because there is at least 11 levels between them, and in 4E thats virtually a guarantee of victory.
Levels in 4E (in general play) are far more significant. Basically anything outside a 5 level difference is going to get wiped out.
Technically you could have a party of First Ones face a Time Lord reduced to a Solo encounter. But even assuming all the First Ones were maximum level it would still be like a bunch of 30ths taking on Orcus.
Belzamus said:
Time Lords may be detailed at some juncture, just not in the first book as PCs.
No because there is at least 11 levels between them, and in 4E thats virtually a guarantee of victory.
Levels in 4E (in general play) are far more significant. Basically anything outside a 5 level difference is going to get wiped out.
Technically you could have a party of First Ones face a Time Lord reduced to a Solo encounter. But even assuming all the First Ones were maximum level it would still be like a bunch of 30ths taking on Orcus.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hiya mate!
Yes. Although it affects a number of things like worshippers and so forth.
Well, my intention is that you would need to undertake a divine quest (basically the level between 30th-31st where your XP would convert over to QP. Basically a quest to gain the Divine Spark. Though you could forego that and just use XP as QP.
See my last 2-3 posts here for why.
Exactly. Which is why perfectly emulating a fantasy world is not always the best solution (Wardragon et al take note).
Understandable. Thats not the route I'll be going.
Simplicity and brevity.
Thats what I have done.
If it accurately models PC immortal 'growth' then it would work for NPCs as well.
Axolotl said:
Yes. Although it affects a number of things like worshippers and so forth.
Well, my intention is that you would need to undertake a divine quest (basically the level between 30th-31st where your XP would convert over to QP. Basically a quest to gain the Divine Spark. Though you could forego that and just use XP as QP.
See my last 2-3 posts here for why.
Exactly. Which is why perfectly emulating a fantasy world is not always the best solution (Wardragon et al take note).
Understandable. Thats not the route I'll be going.
Simplicity and brevity.
Thats what I have done.
If it accurately models PC immortal 'growth' then it would work for NPCs as well.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy beej!
There is no equation since they skew the Table at irregular intervals.
Exactly, thats not close enough and the difference would only get less and less, when I'd want it to stay constant.
Partly why I'd be switching to QP in the first place.
Exactly. XP will stop at 30th and QP will begin.
beej said:
There is no equation since they skew the Table at irregular intervals.
Exactly, thats not close enough and the difference would only get less and less, when I'd want it to stay constant.
Partly why I'd be switching to QP in the first place.
Exactly. XP will stop at 30th and QP will begin.
Hi!Hiya mate!
Do you mean that it affects how many worshippers you have or that the number of worshippers you have affects how much QP you have?
I'm guessing that the divine quest includes a portfolio challenge right?
It just looks like it's causing problems.
Good.
Fair enough.
Then why all this messing about with gaining XP divided by 1,000 or gaining 10% of the monsters QP.
Indeed I just mean don't get rid of an idea just because it would cause gods to advance at a faster rate than they did mythologically.
Just let me clarify how the 4e IH works. Your charicter reaches 30th level. The charicter then chooses a portfolio and goes on a divine quest. At the end of said quest they are still 30th level but now have 1,000 QP. Said charicter can now go on to do more immortal level quests and gain more QP leveling up at 3,000 QP, 7,000 QP, 15,000 QP, 31,000 QP, 63,000 QP, 127,000 QP, 255,000 QP, 611,000 QP and so on. They can take up to two portfolio classes and at some point can take a pantheon pledge. At 50th level the character now takes a Dimension class and at some point they can take some equivilent to a paragon path.
The character gains powers based upon their class and gains divine/cosmic abilities as they level up. And in addition they also gain divine/cosmic traits.
Please correct if I'm wrong.
On artifacts, how will you be handling them? Since artifacts are more complicated than in 3rd would it be possible to have immortals use normal magic items and have the option of investing QP in creating an artifact? This would keep arifacts special and allow players to have magic items without getting bogged down in the various states of different artifacts whilst letting artifact creation as an option.
I've been looking at the monster creation guidelines in the back of the DMG (I really like them). Would you suggest any alterations for the creation of monsters above 30th level? I'm currently statting out various fantasy mythologies using them (mainly updating the 1st ed Deities and Demigods) and was wondering what alterations you'd suggest for high powered monsters.
EDIT: When updating Deities to 4e what power level should they be? Should they be statted out as NPC's or as elite or solo monsters?
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Upper_Krust
Legend
Axolotl said:
Howdy!
Both, although that depends on how you gain QP.
At the moment it may be prudent to have three mini-adventures.
Divine Spark, Portfolio, Pantheon.
It makes more game sense to advance at the same rate as the core levels 1-30.
At the end of the quest the character could be 31st-level (ie. 1st-level Immortal)
You gain portfolios as follows.
1st Portfolio: 31-35
2nd Portfolio: 36-40
3rd portfolio 41-45
Fourth Portfolio: 46-50
The Pantheon Pledge would be taken at levels 31-40. I am unsure yet if this will replace your Paragon Path or work in tandem with it.
Between 41-50 you would join an Immortal Organisation and gain additional powers from that, which may, or may not replace your epic destiny.
At 51st-level you no longer ascend in level by Portfolio but instead by Dimension.
I am not sure if this tier will have something akin to a Paragon Path. Thats to be decided.
There are no classes beyond 30th. Only Portfolios. There are no portfolios beyond 50th, only dimensions.
There are no divine/cosmic abilities (as such). You gain powers based on which Portfolio(s) you take. These powers will be the defacto Divine/Cosmic Abilities.
If you wanted you could say that the Encounter Powers were Divine and the Cosmic Powers were Daily then that might be a fair appraisal.
Not sure yet. Certainly artifacts take up a bit more room in 4E. Though they don't need to be detailed as artifacts when in the possession of the god themself.
Take the Wand of Orcus for example. In the Orcus entry its pretty basic. But if you were writing it up as an artifact you would expect to give it more powers (some of which Orcus may already have by default and thus they are not listed in his entry under the Wand) and details.
There are a lot of things I am still trying to pin down, notably with regards size. I'm currently working with a system that has three new size multipliers (lets call them Mega, Giga and Tera).
Mega would be a x10 multiplier for the Exalted Tier. ie. If I wanted to fight Godzilla he'll be Mega-Gargantuan and in the Exalted Tier - Solo 40 probably.
Giga would be a x1000 multiplier for the Immortal Tier. ie. Monsters like Jormungandr, Typhon and so forth. Monsters that have something akin to the mass of a Mountain.
Tera would be a x1,000,000 multiplier for the Sidereal Tier. ie. planet devouring monsters like the Alklha.
By default, I'll be statting out the main entries as Solo Monsters.
A main entry would be a primary deity entry in a book. A secondary entry could be for a demigod or quasi-deity acting as the Primary Deity's Exarch or something like that.
So I might stat Primary Deity as a Solo Monster of Level 36 and a Secondary deity/Exarch (under the same main entry) as an Elite Monster of Level 31.
Of course in some cases the Primary entry could be a Demigod or Quasi-deity, in which case the secobndary entry may be appropriately weaker.
Fieari
Explorer
I've been brainstorming a system in which medium sized creatures (ie, PCs) can meaningfully interact with much much larger creatures. Basically, add abilities that enable them to act as the best of both world between medium and larger sizes. Note that this is merely at the brainstorming stage at the moment, but I'd love to hear what you guys think.
The basic premise of the idea is that they have either magic or innate speed that enables them to "exist" in any of the squares that they would inhabit were they larger, as well as grant additional reach to match. The way this would manifest would be in reactive abilities. Something like,
Legendary (Large) --- Utility X
At Will * Martial/Arcane/Divine/Whatever, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt --- Close Wall 3
Once per turn as a free action, you may mark an area that you may teleport to. At any time, as an interrupt, you may teleport to any square within that area. If this places you outside of the range or area of the attack, the attack is considered to have automatically missed-- otherwise, the attack resolves as normal.
This would be in combination with increasing the creature's melee range and speed to accommodate their new size. For the area, huge would be close burst 1, gargantuan would have to be something like close wall 15, and so forth.
This sort of thing might be something that would work well as a immortal paragon path or epic destiny equivalent ability. You wouldn't want to simply give more ability refreshing, and new attack abilities will be coming from the portfolios as opposed to paths/destinies. On the other hand, auxiliary stuff like this might work-- it's quite powerful, but not really particular to any one portfolio. It will also change the way battles work
Thoughts?
The basic premise of the idea is that they have either magic or innate speed that enables them to "exist" in any of the squares that they would inhabit were they larger, as well as grant additional reach to match. The way this would manifest would be in reactive abilities. Something like,
Legendary (Large) --- Utility X
At Will * Martial/Arcane/Divine/Whatever, Teleportation
Immediate Interrupt --- Close Wall 3
Once per turn as a free action, you may mark an area that you may teleport to. At any time, as an interrupt, you may teleport to any square within that area. If this places you outside of the range or area of the attack, the attack is considered to have automatically missed-- otherwise, the attack resolves as normal.
This would be in combination with increasing the creature's melee range and speed to accommodate their new size. For the area, huge would be close burst 1, gargantuan would have to be something like close wall 15, and so forth.
This sort of thing might be something that would work well as a immortal paragon path or epic destiny equivalent ability. You wouldn't want to simply give more ability refreshing, and new attack abilities will be coming from the portfolios as opposed to paths/destinies. On the other hand, auxiliary stuff like this might work-- it's quite powerful, but not really particular to any one portfolio. It will also change the way battles work
Thoughts?
Upper_Krust
Legend
Howdy Fieari dude!
Could be a Utility for the Travel Portfolio.
Though I certainly see sense in making it universal at the Exalted Tier.
I have been thinking about the same issues with regards 4E. Movement is very important in 4E but by the same token it is all condensed in a way.
A friend in work lent me the Final Fantasy Advent Children dvd, and in watching the heroes battle versus Bahamut the scale of their movements were incredibly pronounced even though none of them could actually fly they seemed to be able to spring potentially hundreds of feet in the air. Land on the monster (which was flying throughout the city) and attack it. Then get swatted off and either slow their descent enough to land okay or have an ally aid them. Maybe if the monsters blow stuns or dazes you, then you take falling damage, otherwise you land unharmed.
It has made me think that perhaps the solution (or part of the solution) is to treat the monster itself as the terrain, or another level of terrain. The monster might force you 'off' its terrain if it lands a blow.
I sort of like the idea that these 'Demigods' of the Exalted Tier would be able to leap (shift?) massive distances to battle Godzilla like super-monsters. Such a battle might involve the PCs leaping/swarming over Godzilla as it swats them away, stomping or breathing on those that get knocked off.
Whereas the Gods of the Immortal Tier would be able to fly and hover in mid-air.
Sidereals might be able to Time-shift at will, which could be a form of teleportation.
Fieari said:
Could be a Utility for the Travel Portfolio.
Though I certainly see sense in making it universal at the Exalted Tier.
I have been thinking about the same issues with regards 4E. Movement is very important in 4E but by the same token it is all condensed in a way.
A friend in work lent me the Final Fantasy Advent Children dvd, and in watching the heroes battle versus Bahamut the scale of their movements were incredibly pronounced even though none of them could actually fly they seemed to be able to spring potentially hundreds of feet in the air. Land on the monster (which was flying throughout the city) and attack it. Then get swatted off and either slow their descent enough to land okay or have an ally aid them. Maybe if the monsters blow stuns or dazes you, then you take falling damage, otherwise you land unharmed.
It has made me think that perhaps the solution (or part of the solution) is to treat the monster itself as the terrain, or another level of terrain. The monster might force you 'off' its terrain if it lands a blow.
I sort of like the idea that these 'Demigods' of the Exalted Tier would be able to leap (shift?) massive distances to battle Godzilla like super-monsters. Such a battle might involve the PCs leaping/swarming over Godzilla as it swats them away, stomping or breathing on those that get knocked off.
Whereas the Gods of the Immortal Tier would be able to fly and hover in mid-air.
Sidereals might be able to Time-shift at will, which could be a form of teleportation.
